5 ms·

How is the paper propaganda? Did you read it? What was done incorrectly?

feet 4y ago
A piece like this puts out the idea that unions are harmful, but the idea that it puts forward alongside that is that the quality of products takes priority over the wellbeing and care for the workers themselves. It's telling us that we need to think about product quality before workers. Products before living humans. Profit over life. Even if it is true, this is harmful. There are other ways to improve product quality besides shitting on your workers and taking away any bargaining power that they have to squeeze them of every little bit of productivity.
- rockemsockem 4y ago
  It's possible to come up with different conclusions than that, IMO, rather pessimistic one. I had already had this notion that unions likely decrease quality of work, but my conclusion has not been "products over workers", my conclusion has been that companies which mistreat their workers so much that they feel the need to unionize deserve to suffer. There could even be a deeper correlation there in younger companies. Worker mistreatment seems to me to be a sign of incompetence. The companies that do so deserve any ill results they get from unionizing and better companies that treat their workers better and make better products deserve to win out over them.
  - yellowapple 4y ago
    > It's possible to come up with different conclusions than that, IMO, rather pessimistic one. It being possible does not make it probable. I would bet that most people reading the paper are going to come to the "unions bad" conclusion, specifically because people (at least here in the US) have repeatedly been told over and over again that "unions bad".
- missedthecue 4y ago
  Propaganda is when science I don't like?
  - feet 4y ago
    The research can be sound while still propagating harmful ideology Such as suppression of worker rights and unions
- djbebs 4y ago
  Because they are harmful.
  - feet 4y ago
    Yes, harmful to the profits of the capital owners who didn't do any actual work Humans should take priority over money
- ChrisLomont 4y ago
  Ignoring that unions can have both good and bad effects will lead to suboptimal outcomes. By understanding and quantifying the pieces, it may be possible to improve benefits without cost or to lessen downsides without cost. It also allows actors (employees, employers, society) to make better decisions if they have accurate information. None of this makes it propaganda. Propaganda includes ignoring problems by calling them propaganda. A union is exactly a monopoly on labor, both by definition and legally (certainly in the US, and likely elsewhere). Any monopoly has expected pros and cons.
  - feet 4y ago
    Weird how people seem to be okay with oligopolistic and monopolistic behavior from corporations but when workers unionize and take action to improve their material conditions it's the end of the world We can see this attitude in the way that UK media has been covering the tube strikes Almost like there's been a lot of... propaganda
kelseyfrog 4y ago
Truthfulness and propaganda are orthogonal attributes. To anyone who things that they are exclusive, pull up a chair, I've got some bad news for you. This is going to be hard to hear.
beepbeepcabbage 4y ago

feet 4y ago

A piece like this puts out the idea that unions are harmful, but the idea that it puts forward alongside that is that the quality of products takes priority over the wellbeing and care for the workers themselves. It's telling us that we need to think about product quality before workers. Products before living humans. Profit over life. Even if it is true, this is harmful. There are other ways to improve product quality besides shitting on your workers and taking away any bargaining power that they have to squeeze them of every little bit of productivity.

rockemsockem 4y ago
It's possible to come up with different conclusions than that, IMO, rather pessimistic one. I had already had this notion that unions likely decrease quality of work, but my conclusion has not been "products over workers", my conclusion has been that companies which mistreat their workers so much that they feel the need to unionize deserve to suffer. There could even be a deeper correlation there in younger companies. Worker mistreatment seems to me to be a sign of incompetence. The companies that do so deserve any ill results they get from unionizing and better companies that treat their workers better and make better products deserve to win out over them.
- yellowapple 4y ago
  > It's possible to come up with different conclusions than that, IMO, rather pessimistic one. It being possible does not make it probable. I would bet that most people reading the paper are going to come to the "unions bad" conclusion, specifically because people (at least here in the US) have repeatedly been told over and over again that "unions bad".
missedthecue 4y ago
Propaganda is when science I don't like?
- feet 4y ago
  The research can be sound while still propagating harmful ideology Such as suppression of worker rights and unions
djbebs 4y ago
Because they are harmful.
- feet 4y ago
  Yes, harmful to the profits of the capital owners who didn't do any actual work Humans should take priority over money
ChrisLomont 4y ago
Ignoring that unions can have both good and bad effects will lead to suboptimal outcomes. By understanding and quantifying the pieces, it may be possible to improve benefits without cost or to lessen downsides without cost. It also allows actors (employees, employers, society) to make better decisions if they have accurate information. None of this makes it propaganda. Propaganda includes ignoring problems by calling them propaganda. A union is exactly a monopoly on labor, both by definition and legally (certainly in the US, and likely elsewhere). Any monopoly has expected pros and cons.
- feet 4y ago
  Weird how people seem to be okay with oligopolistic and monopolistic behavior from corporations but when workers unionize and take action to improve their material conditions it's the end of the world We can see this attitude in the way that UK media has been covering the tube strikes Almost like there's been a lot of... propaganda

kelseyfrog 4y ago

Truthfulness and propaganda are orthogonal attributes. To anyone who things that they are exclusive, pull up a chair, I've got some bad news for you. This is going to be hard to hear.

beepbeepcabbage 4y ago