5 ms·

In my country immigrants are high net contributors, but that is because they are illegal thus they get basically no benefits; or they are legal and thus they us

In my country immigrants are high net contributors, but that is because they are illegal thus they get basically no benefits; or they are legal and thus they usually have a high bar (unless family sponsored) of being more educated or wealthy than our typical citizens.

worik 4y ago
> ut that is because they are illegal thus they get basically no benefits Evidence?
- notch656a 4y ago
  You don't understand that if society provides you no benefits, and you pay into taxes from otherwise (sans the fact you're an illegal immigrant) legitimate labor, it's almost impossible to be a net drain?
  - lazyasciiart 4y ago
    I'm not arguing that these factors are large enough to change the answer, but other ways someone can be a net drain include a) being criminals who inflict various kinds of harm on others b) working in jobs that would otherwise be taken by existing locals, who are now displaced onto benefits c) working in jobs that would otherwise not be able to find employees, thus asserting downward pressure on wages/conditions d) using those benefits which are available, such as (in the US) public schools, emergency departments, and sometimes state-specific benefits e) using resources from a finite pool such as e.g land in a farming county, houses in a city that refuses to allow further development Most of these arguments can be found when people are objecting to legal immigration
  - worik 4y ago
    I think you may be labouring under the burden of prejudice.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      As we all are.
    - kragen 4y ago
      No, he's pretty much right. As an illegal immigrant, I still have to pay all kinds of taxes, but it's really hard and sometimes dangerous to access many of the public services those taxes provide. Public goods like roads, street lights, and the fact that armed robbers find it more convenient to leave me alive instead of dead, those I can benefit from. But I'm reluctant to report crimes to the police, I had a hell of a time getting a covid vaccination, and I'm not going to get any retirement money from the government when I'm too senile to work. At least I can still audit classes at the university. I'm not much of an "agitator on one of the sides". I can't afford to be an agitator, I might get deported. I'm just telling you what my life is like.
mrtksn 4y ago
What makes you think that if the immigrants were legal they would not work as hard and leech the social system unlike the natives?
- notch656a 4y ago
  I think the vast vast majority would continue to work hard. But leachers do exist, and given the opportunity, some will. The thing is the ones that are here illegally are already self selected as ones willing to work without social supports. ----------- >Leechers exist among natives too. Any particular reason to believe that it’s worse with the immigrants? No in fact I've stated the opposite. The incentive structure for immigrants self selects the illegal ones as ones willing to work without social support, because it isn't offered to them. The legal immigrants, unless sponsored by family/spouse, generally have high education or wealth requirements than our average populace thus they're less likely to use benefits. In fact I think my country could look at the incentive structure that has made the illegal immigrant in my country so hard working, and think about how we can apply to making our own citizenry more independent and less dependent on public benefits.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    Leechers exist among natives too. Any particular reason to believe that it’s worse with the immigrants?
    - christkv 4y ago
      https://www.ssb.no/en/arbeid-og-lonn/artikler-og-publikasjoner/what-do-we-know-about-immigrants-who-do-not-work-study-or-receive-benefits https://www.ssb.no/en/arbeid-og-lonn/artikler-og-publikasjon...
      - mrtksn 4y ago
        Thanks, interesting link. In attempt to tackle the economic crisis that the Turkey is in, last December the Turkish government introduced a banking instrument indexed to one of the USD/EUR/GBP currencies where you can put your Turkish lira and earn interest of up to %17 but if the Turkish lira loses more value than your currency of choice the government will match the difference. So at the best case you earn up to %17 interest and on worst case you don't lose in terms of foreign currency. Anyway, they made it available to foreigners too in attempt to have the Turkish diaspora in Europe and UK bring their money to Turkey. Unfortunately it failed to fetch any significant demand and BBC Turkish made a small documentary with the Turks living in the UK and talked with them on why they did not took the opportunity. The answers were actually shocking: Turks were working illegally so that they don't pay income tax and receive state benefits and as a result they couldn't put their money in the banking system because Turkey started sharing data with EU and UK. It turns out, there are many Turks who are officially unemployed but are actually working illegally and not paying taxes. I don't deny the existence of leeches, I wish they were caught. EU made a significant progress with the Turkish cheaters and their money is no longer in heaven in Turkey.

worik 4y ago

> ut that is because they are illegal thus they get basically no benefits Evidence?

notch656a 4y ago
You don't understand that if society provides you no benefits, and you pay into taxes from otherwise (sans the fact you're an illegal immigrant) legitimate labor, it's almost impossible to be a net drain?
- lazyasciiart 4y ago
  I'm not arguing that these factors are large enough to change the answer, but other ways someone can be a net drain include a) being criminals who inflict various kinds of harm on others b) working in jobs that would otherwise be taken by existing locals, who are now displaced onto benefits c) working in jobs that would otherwise not be able to find employees, thus asserting downward pressure on wages/conditions d) using those benefits which are available, such as (in the US) public schools, emergency departments, and sometimes state-specific benefits e) using resources from a finite pool such as e.g land in a farming county, houses in a city that refuses to allow further development Most of these arguments can be found when people are objecting to legal immigration
- worik 4y ago
  I think you may be labouring under the burden of prejudice.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    As we all are.
  - kragen 4y ago
    No, he's pretty much right. As an illegal immigrant, I still have to pay all kinds of taxes, but it's really hard and sometimes dangerous to access many of the public services those taxes provide. Public goods like roads, street lights, and the fact that armed robbers find it more convenient to leave me alive instead of dead, those I can benefit from. But I'm reluctant to report crimes to the police, I had a hell of a time getting a covid vaccination, and I'm not going to get any retirement money from the government when I'm too senile to work. At least I can still audit classes at the university. I'm not much of an "agitator on one of the sides". I can't afford to be an agitator, I might get deported. I'm just telling you what my life is like.

mrtksn 4y ago

What makes you think that if the immigrants were legal they would not work as hard and leech the social system unlike the natives?

notch656a 4y ago
I think the vast vast majority would continue to work hard. But leachers do exist, and given the opportunity, some will. The thing is the ones that are here illegally are already self selected as ones willing to work without social supports. ----------- >Leechers exist among natives too. Any particular reason to believe that it’s worse with the immigrants? No in fact I've stated the opposite. The incentive structure for immigrants self selects the illegal ones as ones willing to work without social support, because it isn't offered to them. The legal immigrants, unless sponsored by family/spouse, generally have high education or wealth requirements than our average populace thus they're less likely to use benefits. In fact I think my country could look at the incentive structure that has made the illegal immigrant in my country so hard working, and think about how we can apply to making our own citizenry more independent and less dependent on public benefits.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  Leechers exist among natives too. Any particular reason to believe that it’s worse with the immigrants?
  - christkv 4y ago
    https://www.ssb.no/en/arbeid-og-lonn/artikler-og-publikasjoner/what-do-we-know-about-immigrants-who-do-not-work-study-or-receive-benefits https://www.ssb.no/en/arbeid-og-lonn/artikler-og-publikasjon...
    - mrtksn 4y ago
      Thanks, interesting link. In attempt to tackle the economic crisis that the Turkey is in, last December the Turkish government introduced a banking instrument indexed to one of the USD/EUR/GBP currencies where you can put your Turkish lira and earn interest of up to %17 but if the Turkish lira loses more value than your currency of choice the government will match the difference. So at the best case you earn up to %17 interest and on worst case you don't lose in terms of foreign currency. Anyway, they made it available to foreigners too in attempt to have the Turkish diaspora in Europe and UK bring their money to Turkey. Unfortunately it failed to fetch any significant demand and BBC Turkish made a small documentary with the Turks living in the UK and talked with them on why they did not took the opportunity. The answers were actually shocking: Turks were working illegally so that they don't pay income tax and receive state benefits and as a result they couldn't put their money in the banking system because Turkey started sharing data with EU and UK. It turns out, there are many Turks who are officially unemployed but are actually working illegally and not paying taxes. I don't deny the existence of leeches, I wish they were caught. EU made a significant progress with the Turkish cheaters and their money is no longer in heaven in Turkey.