4 ms·

I agree that immigrants are a good thing. Especially illegal immigrants if they have no way to benefit from tax benefits but are forced to pay into it. It mea

I agree that immigrants are a good thing. Especially illegal immigrants if they have no way to benefit from tax benefits but are forced to pay into it. It means they're basically forced to be a net benefit. The key is to make sure any benefits offered to immigrants are not a net drain on society. Usually this is the case, particularly if you just deny illegal immigrants any service while forcing them to pay taxes, but one has to be careful that systems aren't set up that allow exploitation of citizens.

mrtksn 4y ago
That was well established that the immigrants are a net contributors(actually bigger contributors per capita in comparison to the locals) and actually a very small number of the immigrants take payments from the social security system. It doesn't make any sense to go to another country and possibly spend a lot of money and risk your life and live on bare minimum. Very small number of people take that path.
- notch656a 4y ago
  In my country immigrants are high net contributors, but that is because they are illegal thus they get basically no benefits; or they are legal and thus they usually have a high bar (unless family sponsored) of being more educated or wealthy than our typical citizens.
  - worik 4y ago
    > ut that is because they are illegal thus they get basically no benefits Evidence?
    - notch656a 4y ago
      You don't understand that if society provides you no benefits, and you pay into taxes from otherwise (sans the fact you're an illegal immigrant) legitimate labor, it's almost impossible to be a net drain?
      - lazyasciiart 4y ago
        I'm not arguing that these factors are large enough to change the answer, but other ways someone can be a net drain include a) being criminals who inflict various kinds of harm on others b) working in jobs that would otherwise be taken by existing locals, who are now displaced onto benefits c) working in jobs that would otherwise not be able to find employees, thus asserting downward pressure on wages/conditions d) using those benefits which are available, such as (in the US) public schools, emergency departments, and sometimes state-specific benefits e) using resources from a finite pool such as e.g land in a farming county, houses in a city that refuses to allow further development Most of these arguments can be found when people are objecting to legal immigration
      - worik 4y ago
        I think you may be labouring under the burden of prejudice.
        notch656a 4y ago
        As we all are.
        kragen 4y ago
        No, he's pretty much right. As an illegal immigrant, I still have to pay all kinds of taxes, but it's really hard and sometimes dangerous to access many of the public services those taxes provide. Public goods like roads, street lights, and the fact that armed robbers find it more convenient to leave me alive instead of dead, those I can benefit from. But I'm reluctant to report crimes to the police, I had a hell of a time getting a covid vaccination, and I'm not going to get any retirement money from the government when I'm too senile to work. At least I can still audit classes at the university. I'm not much of an "agitator on one of the sides". I can't afford to be an agitator, I might get deported. I'm just telling you what my life is like.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    What makes you think that if the immigrants were legal they would not work as hard and leech the social system unlike the natives?
    - notch656a 4y ago
      I think the vast vast majority would continue to work hard. But leachers do exist, and given the opportunity, some will. The thing is the ones that are here illegally are already self selected as ones willing to work without social supports. ----------- >Leechers exist among natives too. Any particular reason to believe that it’s worse with the immigrants? No in fact I've stated the opposite. The incentive structure for immigrants self selects the illegal ones as ones willing to work without social support, because it isn't offered to them. The legal immigrants, unless sponsored by family/spouse, generally have high education or wealth requirements than our average populace thus they're less likely to use benefits. In fact I think my country could look at the incentive structure that has made the illegal immigrant in my country so hard working, and think about how we can apply to making our own citizenry more independent and less dependent on public benefits.
      - mrtksn 4y ago
        Leechers exist among natives too. Any particular reason to believe that it’s worse with the immigrants?
        christkv 4y ago
        https://www.ssb.no/en/arbeid-og-lonn/artikler-og-publikasjoner/what-do-we-know-about-immigrants-who-do-not-work-study-or-receive-benefits https://www.ssb.no/en/arbeid-og-lonn/artikler-og-publikasjon...
        mrtksn 4y ago
        Thanks, interesting link. In attempt to tackle the economic crisis that the Turkey is in, last December the Turkish government introduced a banking instrument indexed to one of the USD/EUR/GBP currencies where you can put your Turkish lira and earn interest of up to %17 but if the Turkish lira loses more value than your currency of choice the government will match the difference. So at the best case you earn up to %17 interest and on worst case you don't lose in terms of foreign currency. Anyway, they made it available to foreigners too in attempt to have the Turkish diaspora in Europe and UK bring their money to Turkey. Unfortunately it failed to fetch any significant demand and BBC Turkish made a small documentary with the Turks living in the UK and talked with them on why they did not took the opportunity. The answers were actually shocking: Turks were working illegally so that they don't pay income tax and receive state benefits and as a result they couldn't put their money in the banking system because Turkey started sharing data with EU and UK. It turns out, there are many Turks who are officially unemployed but are actually working illegally and not paying taxes. I don't deny the existence of leeches, I wish they were caught. EU made a significant progress with the Turkish cheaters and their money is no longer in heaven in Turkey.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
bruceb 4y ago
> I agree that immigrants are a good thing. Especially illegal immigrants if they have no way to benefit from tax benefits but are forced to pay into it This is misstating the situation. 1. People working under the table don't pay taxes. 2. Those who do pay taxes are not earning that much as such not paying much tax 3. They do get benefits. For example CA gave illegal immigrants payments. https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/california-give-cash-payments-immigrants-hurt-virus-70169631 https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/california-give-cash-pay... Immigration is complex. Filled with bad faith and misleading arguments from many sides.
- notch656a 4y ago
  I know for instance Norway has suggested allowing illegal immigrants onward voyage to Svalbard where there are no public benefits but also no visa requirements to work, which allow them to technically stay in Norway and still have work authorization without becoming a public charge. I think this kind of clever problem solving is really the kind we need to overcome some of these challenges.
  - komadori 4y ago
    There are no public benefits in Svalbard because they send anyone who can't support themselves back to Norway. The economy is small and dominated by a few state-owned employers who own almost all the housing and rent it to their employees. Sending illegal immigrants from Norway to Svalbard is not a practical suggestion.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      Norway's own politicians and people were the ones suggesting it. Not being Norwegian myself I'm relying on those in Norway to suggest these ideas. Both the FrP and Green Party have come up with plans to make it practical. > send anyone who can't support themselves back to Norway I mean for illegal immigrants; if they can't support themselves they can be sent back to their own country. They have no right to stay in mainland Norway, so that won't be a problem. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/norwegian-politicians-propose-putting-refugees-on-svalbard-remote-arctic-islands-with-more-polar-bears-than-people-10498859.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/norwegian-po... https://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/4956-frp-politician-proposes-to-send-refugees-in-norway-to-svalbard/ https://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/4956-frp-politician-propo...

mrtksn 4y ago

That was well established that the immigrants are a net contributors(actually bigger contributors per capita in comparison to the locals) and actually a very small number of the immigrants take payments from the social security system. It doesn't make any sense to go to another country and possibly spend a lot of money and risk your life and live on bare minimum. Very small number of people take that path.

notch656a 4y ago
In my country immigrants are high net contributors, but that is because they are illegal thus they get basically no benefits; or they are legal and thus they usually have a high bar (unless family sponsored) of being more educated or wealthy than our typical citizens.
- worik 4y ago
  > ut that is because they are illegal thus they get basically no benefits Evidence?
  - notch656a 4y ago
    You don't understand that if society provides you no benefits, and you pay into taxes from otherwise (sans the fact you're an illegal immigrant) legitimate labor, it's almost impossible to be a net drain?
    - lazyasciiart 4y ago
      I'm not arguing that these factors are large enough to change the answer, but other ways someone can be a net drain include a) being criminals who inflict various kinds of harm on others b) working in jobs that would otherwise be taken by existing locals, who are now displaced onto benefits c) working in jobs that would otherwise not be able to find employees, thus asserting downward pressure on wages/conditions d) using those benefits which are available, such as (in the US) public schools, emergency departments, and sometimes state-specific benefits e) using resources from a finite pool such as e.g land in a farming county, houses in a city that refuses to allow further development Most of these arguments can be found when people are objecting to legal immigration
    - worik 4y ago
      I think you may be labouring under the burden of prejudice.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        As we all are.
      - kragen 4y ago
        No, he's pretty much right. As an illegal immigrant, I still have to pay all kinds of taxes, but it's really hard and sometimes dangerous to access many of the public services those taxes provide. Public goods like roads, street lights, and the fact that armed robbers find it more convenient to leave me alive instead of dead, those I can benefit from. But I'm reluctant to report crimes to the police, I had a hell of a time getting a covid vaccination, and I'm not going to get any retirement money from the government when I'm too senile to work. At least I can still audit classes at the university. I'm not much of an "agitator on one of the sides". I can't afford to be an agitator, I might get deported. I'm just telling you what my life is like.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  What makes you think that if the immigrants were legal they would not work as hard and leech the social system unlike the natives?
  - notch656a 4y ago
    I think the vast vast majority would continue to work hard. But leachers do exist, and given the opportunity, some will. The thing is the ones that are here illegally are already self selected as ones willing to work without social supports. ----------- >Leechers exist among natives too. Any particular reason to believe that it’s worse with the immigrants? No in fact I've stated the opposite. The incentive structure for immigrants self selects the illegal ones as ones willing to work without social support, because it isn't offered to them. The legal immigrants, unless sponsored by family/spouse, generally have high education or wealth requirements than our average populace thus they're less likely to use benefits. In fact I think my country could look at the incentive structure that has made the illegal immigrant in my country so hard working, and think about how we can apply to making our own citizenry more independent and less dependent on public benefits.
    - mrtksn 4y ago
      Leechers exist among natives too. Any particular reason to believe that it’s worse with the immigrants?
      - christkv 4y ago
        https://www.ssb.no/en/arbeid-og-lonn/artikler-og-publikasjoner/what-do-we-know-about-immigrants-who-do-not-work-study-or-receive-benefits https://www.ssb.no/en/arbeid-og-lonn/artikler-og-publikasjon...
        mrtksn 4y ago
        Thanks, interesting link. In attempt to tackle the economic crisis that the Turkey is in, last December the Turkish government introduced a banking instrument indexed to one of the USD/EUR/GBP currencies where you can put your Turkish lira and earn interest of up to %17 but if the Turkish lira loses more value than your currency of choice the government will match the difference. So at the best case you earn up to %17 interest and on worst case you don't lose in terms of foreign currency. Anyway, they made it available to foreigners too in attempt to have the Turkish diaspora in Europe and UK bring their money to Turkey. Unfortunately it failed to fetch any significant demand and BBC Turkish made a small documentary with the Turks living in the UK and talked with them on why they did not took the opportunity. The answers were actually shocking: Turks were working illegally so that they don't pay income tax and receive state benefits and as a result they couldn't put their money in the banking system because Turkey started sharing data with EU and UK. It turns out, there are many Turks who are officially unemployed but are actually working illegally and not paying taxes. I don't deny the existence of leeches, I wish they were caught. EU made a significant progress with the Turkish cheaters and their money is no longer in heaven in Turkey.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

bruceb 4y ago

> I agree that immigrants are a good thing. Especially illegal immigrants if they have no way to benefit from tax benefits but are forced to pay into it This is misstating the situation. 1. People working under the table don't pay taxes. 2. Those who do pay taxes are not earning that much as such not paying much tax 3. They do get benefits. For example CA gave illegal immigrants payments. https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/california-give-cash-payments-immigrants-hurt-virus-70169631 https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/california-give-cash-pay... Immigration is complex. Filled with bad faith and misleading arguments from many sides.

notch656a 4y ago
I know for instance Norway has suggested allowing illegal immigrants onward voyage to Svalbard where there are no public benefits but also no visa requirements to work, which allow them to technically stay in Norway and still have work authorization without becoming a public charge. I think this kind of clever problem solving is really the kind we need to overcome some of these challenges.
- komadori 4y ago
  There are no public benefits in Svalbard because they send anyone who can't support themselves back to Norway. The economy is small and dominated by a few state-owned employers who own almost all the housing and rent it to their employees. Sending illegal immigrants from Norway to Svalbard is not a practical suggestion.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    Norway's own politicians and people were the ones suggesting it. Not being Norwegian myself I'm relying on those in Norway to suggest these ideas. Both the FrP and Green Party have come up with plans to make it practical. > send anyone who can't support themselves back to Norway I mean for illegal immigrants; if they can't support themselves they can be sent back to their own country. They have no right to stay in mainland Norway, so that won't be a problem. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/norwegian-politicians-propose-putting-refugees-on-svalbard-remote-arctic-islands-with-more-polar-bears-than-people-10498859.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/norwegian-po... https://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/4956-frp-politician-proposes-to-send-refugees-in-norway-to-svalbard/ https://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/4956-frp-politician-propo...