5 ms·

Similarly, at a large land grant university, we talk a lot about improving our rankings, but acknowledge that one of the major metrics (% of students not accept

by Fomite 4y ago

Similarly, at a large land grant university, we talk a lot about improving our rankings, but acknowledge that one of the major metrics (% of students not accepted) is something that's contrary to our mission. It was an open secret when I was in Boston that Harvard actively encourages people to "give it a shot" when they know full well they're not getting in to boost that metric.

joe5150 4y ago
"Recruit to deny" [1] has been getting more attention but still not enough. 1: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/29/us/harvard-admissions-recruit-letter.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/29/us/harvard-admissions-rec...
- KMag 4y ago
  Michigan also seemed to waitlist me and several of the people I knew at MIT. If they know they're the backup school, and they think you're going to get into your first choice, it hurts their acceptance rate to accept you outright. Though, maybe it's just confirmation bias and ego. Maybe there was something in my application that gave Michigan pause but seemed fine to MIT. At that time, Michigan did ask which other schools to which you were applying. I'm not sure if that's still the case.
  - JohnBooty 4y ago
    I'm confused. How would Michigan know that they were your second choice?
    - draz 4y ago
      They expect students of a certain caliber. If the applicant exceeds their expectations, the university assumes the student is using this application as a “safety school.”
      - brewdad 4y ago
        My kid, got waitlisted at UM, while a classmate with similar but slightly lower GPA and extra-currs got in. Maybe his essay wasn't as convincing or maybe they thought he'd snub them for his first choice. He didn't get into the dream school either but ended up in a great place at a school that likely fits him better anyway (and is cheaper since UM's OOS tuition is insane). It's still frustrating as both his parents are alumni. Thanks to Covid and test waivers, 2021 seemed like a rougher year than normal to be applying to the higher end of schools.
      - gundmc 4y ago
        This is sometimes referred to as "Tufts Syndrome" or "Yield Protection": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_protection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_protection
        Fomite 4y ago
        cries in Jumbo alum
    - Fomite 4y ago
      I used to live with an admissions officer - they've got data (and instinct) for "You're probably not going to go here". The same is true for graduate admissions in my experience.
hobo_in_library 4y ago
Acceptance rates is a really poor choice of input for college ranking It's basically saying "other people seem to think this college is good, so we'll nudge them up a few points" In other words, it's attempting to measure public perception about the college instead of the actual results it produces. How the public _thinks_ a certain college is shouldn't factor into how good you _tell_ the public that that college performs
- troupe 4y ago
  Imagine college A that 100 apply for and all 100 get in vs. college B where 10,000 people applied and only 100 got in. If both colleges are choosing students based off of some measurable criteria, let's say the SAT score. Would you expect to have higher average scores at college A or college B? Obviously college B would have students with better SAT scores simply because they are so much more selective. Assuming that the college is selecting students for attributes that you are looking for in fellow students, then the college that denies more people will have students with more of the attributes you are wanting to be around. So it isn't just about perception. There is some math behind it as well.
  - highwaylights 4y ago
    Even so, you don’t need to guess the reasons for acceptance on aggregate data - you can check if the SAT scores were higher. At least that would tell you for certain.
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    It depends if school A costs 100,000 and school B almost free. I would put my money on the 100 who spent 100,000 over the free 10,000.
  - HWR_14 4y ago
    > If both colleges are choosing students based off of some measurable criteria, let's say the SAT score. Would you expect to have higher average scores at college A or college B? Except "average SAT score of incoming class" is another field of the rankings. All the measurable criteria are handled as independent variables - there's no need for a poor proxy.
gumby 4y ago
> It was an open secret when I was in Boston that Harvard actively encourages people to "give it a shot" when they know full well they're not getting in to boost that metric. The common app has made this worse. In "the old days" you had to fill out a full application, write different essays etc.
Aunche 4y ago
I remember when I was applying for colleges and the only reason I applied to Harvard was because they didn't require any specific essay, which was unlike any other school. If they did, I probably would have just passed on them. At the time, I thought it was nice because I was tired of writing essays, but now I realize that it's probably just a way to boost their selectivity.
spindle 4y ago
I didn't know that about Harvard. That's so sad. I've seen how devastated the rejects can be. My anecdote is that I was once recruited by one of the best departments in the world in my field, at a very junior level ... and then, before I started, my contract was rewritten to be at a higher level, because they'd found out that that would allow them to count my grants in their metrics. Not only is this obviously dodgy, but I think it's actually illegal in Australia (since better-qualified candidates weren't given the opportunity to apply for the post at the higher level), but they did it anyway.

by Fomite 4y ago

joe5150 4y ago

"Recruit to deny" [1] has been getting more attention but still not enough. 1: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/29/us/harvard-admissions-recruit-letter.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/29/us/harvard-admissions-rec...

KMag 4y ago
Michigan also seemed to waitlist me and several of the people I knew at MIT. If they know they're the backup school, and they think you're going to get into your first choice, it hurts their acceptance rate to accept you outright. Though, maybe it's just confirmation bias and ego. Maybe there was something in my application that gave Michigan pause but seemed fine to MIT. At that time, Michigan did ask which other schools to which you were applying. I'm not sure if that's still the case.
- JohnBooty 4y ago
  I'm confused. How would Michigan know that they were your second choice?
  - draz 4y ago
    They expect students of a certain caliber. If the applicant exceeds their expectations, the university assumes the student is using this application as a “safety school.”
    - brewdad 4y ago
      My kid, got waitlisted at UM, while a classmate with similar but slightly lower GPA and extra-currs got in. Maybe his essay wasn't as convincing or maybe they thought he'd snub them for his first choice. He didn't get into the dream school either but ended up in a great place at a school that likely fits him better anyway (and is cheaper since UM's OOS tuition is insane). It's still frustrating as both his parents are alumni. Thanks to Covid and test waivers, 2021 seemed like a rougher year than normal to be applying to the higher end of schools.
    - gundmc 4y ago
      This is sometimes referred to as "Tufts Syndrome" or "Yield Protection": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_protection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yield_protection
      - Fomite 4y ago
        cries in Jumbo alum
  - Fomite 4y ago
    I used to live with an admissions officer - they've got data (and instinct) for "You're probably not going to go here". The same is true for graduate admissions in my experience.

hobo_in_library 4y ago

Acceptance rates is a really poor choice of input for college ranking It's basically saying "other people seem to think this college is good, so we'll nudge them up a few points" In other words, it's attempting to measure public perception about the college instead of the actual results it produces. How the public _thinks_ a certain college is shouldn't factor into how good you _tell_ the public that that college performs

troupe 4y ago
Imagine college A that 100 apply for and all 100 get in vs. college B where 10,000 people applied and only 100 got in. If both colleges are choosing students based off of some measurable criteria, let's say the SAT score. Would you expect to have higher average scores at college A or college B? Obviously college B would have students with better SAT scores simply because they are so much more selective. Assuming that the college is selecting students for attributes that you are looking for in fellow students, then the college that denies more people will have students with more of the attributes you are wanting to be around. So it isn't just about perception. There is some math behind it as well.
- highwaylights 4y ago
  Even so, you don’t need to guess the reasons for acceptance on aggregate data - you can check if the SAT scores were higher. At least that would tell you for certain.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  It depends if school A costs 100,000 and school B almost free. I would put my money on the 100 who spent 100,000 over the free 10,000.
- HWR_14 4y ago
  > If both colleges are choosing students based off of some measurable criteria, let's say the SAT score. Would you expect to have higher average scores at college A or college B? Except "average SAT score of incoming class" is another field of the rankings. All the measurable criteria are handled as independent variables - there's no need for a poor proxy.

gumby 4y ago

> It was an open secret when I was in Boston that Harvard actively encourages people to "give it a shot" when they know full well they're not getting in to boost that metric. The common app has made this worse. In "the old days" you had to fill out a full application, write different essays etc.

Aunche 4y ago

I remember when I was applying for colleges and the only reason I applied to Harvard was because they didn't require any specific essay, which was unlike any other school. If they did, I probably would have just passed on them. At the time, I thought it was nice because I was tired of writing essays, but now I realize that it's probably just a way to boost their selectivity.

spindle 4y ago

I didn't know that about Harvard. That's so sad. I've seen how devastated the rejects can be. My anecdote is that I was once recruited by one of the best departments in the world in my field, at a very junior level ... and then, before I started, my contract was rewritten to be at a higher level, because they'd found out that that would allow them to count my grants in their metrics. Not only is this obviously dodgy, but I think it's actually illegal in Australia (since better-qualified candidates weren't given the opportunity to apply for the post at the higher level), but they did it anyway.