4 ms·

Same here. Age of Empires II is still the cash cow. Neither AoE III or Age of Myth hooked me. AoE II is the best RTS in my opinion. Timing, game play, balance,

Same here. Age of Empires II is still the cash cow. Neither AoE III or Age of Myth hooked me. AoE II is the best RTS in my opinion. Timing, game play, balance, fun with others. I even - GOG - reinstalled Warcraft 2 lately and enjoyed its simplicity. ;)

dragontamer 4y ago
AOE2 is wonky, but that's what makes it good. Villagers collide with each other, forcing you to find new tree-lines (compared to Starcraft/Starcraft2 SCVs/workers which "stack" on each other for maximum mineral collecting at all times). Units in AOE2 move terribly, minimizing what you can do with micro (sure, micro is still possible, but this ain't no "magic box Psi Storm", nor a 11-muta harass here). AOE2 "micro" is largely delegated to patrol-shennanigans and "zvzvzvz" (staggered formation / flank-formation) for dodging magonel shots. ------- SC2 had units deathball too easily with perfect flocking behavior. The 90s-style crappy flocking behavior / collisions (aka: idiotic Dragoons from SC:Brood War or AOE2 pathing issues) somehow balances the game for the better. Once units "deathball" too easily, you end up with well... deathball-style combat. By making units get less-efficient the bigger the group (ie: Dragoons going the wrong direction or getting stuck in paths, or AOE2 units running around not understanding how to attack the damn enemy cause the group is too big), it forces the players into controling smaller groups and more strategically using them. Which seems like more fun? Its annoying because the "units don't do what you want them to do" (and SC2 units really "do what you want them to do"). But... somehow its less balanced with the SC2 approach. ------- The key to a good strategy game is to accept and recognize the duality of Lanchester's Linear Law (ie: Risk rules), and Lanchester's Quadratic Law (ie: Axis and Allies). If you overly focus on the Quadratic law, you end up with death-balls. If you overly focus on the linear law, it feels like additional units don't support each other and the game feels very flat (ie: Risk-like). But if you have a rich continuum between the two laws, you end up with great gameplay (Starcraft: Brood War, AOE2, and Hearts of Iron 3). Let units get quadratically stronger as they flock together... but only to a point. (IE; the size of the front in Hearts of Iron 3. Or until the "Magic Box size" in Starcraft:Brood War). Once the units grow beyond that, they need to be hampered and grow more linearly, encouraging a more diverse set of combat situations.
- drekipus 4y ago
  nice writing. I think you have a good point with the "death-ball" approach. I haven't seen it put it that way. I'm a big SC:BW fan. I haven't played in a while but I love watching it, and I feel like the competitive RTS market is something that is waiting for a hero. SC2 really isn't it, for a multitude of reasons. (balled groups of units being one of them, imo) Frost Giant's first technical demo (presented in "the pylon show" forget which episode) was a "perfect flocking simulator" showing how the machine could multi-threaded handle 100 million units around a complex maze. I hated it. Give me the chaos of units bumping into each other and trying to find the optimal way with other moving agents in the way. Maybe not quite as bad as Dragoons and SCVs, but similar. There's the certain aspect of suspense and excitement that BW pro games have compared to SC2. "we all know that the unit has to move there and shoot, but will it get there in time? have they given it orders fast enough? is something going to block it?" -- it really ads to the atmosphere of excitement, knowing that the perfect play isn't going to be possible.
  - dragontamer 4y ago
    > competitive RTS market is something that is waiting for a hero Really try Age of Empires 2. Its having a mild renaissance right now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u3HupyXyKQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u3HupyXyKQ Sure, its over 20 years old now, but its still getting new DLC, updates, and balance patches today.
    - drekipus 4y ago
      I'm 8 minutes in and the presentation level is astounding. And with the red-bull sponsorship I'm sure this has got a bit of the cash behind it to keep such a great presentation. Thanks for the link, I will definitely keep an eye out for this. I'll be watching the rest of this video through the day I think.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - 4y ago
spywaregorilla 4y ago
AoM was pretty solid in my opinion

dragontamer 4y ago

AOE2 is wonky, but that's what makes it good. Villagers collide with each other, forcing you to find new tree-lines (compared to Starcraft/Starcraft2 SCVs/workers which "stack" on each other for maximum mineral collecting at all times). Units in AOE2 move terribly, minimizing what you can do with micro (sure, micro is still possible, but this ain't no "magic box Psi Storm", nor a 11-muta harass here). AOE2 "micro" is largely delegated to patrol-shennanigans and "zvzvzvz" (staggered formation / flank-formation) for dodging magonel shots. ------- SC2 had units deathball too easily with perfect flocking behavior. The 90s-style crappy flocking behavior / collisions (aka: idiotic Dragoons from SC:Brood War or AOE2 pathing issues) somehow balances the game for the better. Once units "deathball" too easily, you end up with well... deathball-style combat. By making units get less-efficient the bigger the group (ie: Dragoons going the wrong direction or getting stuck in paths, or AOE2 units running around not understanding how to attack the damn enemy cause the group is too big), it forces the players into controling smaller groups and more strategically using them. Which seems like more fun? Its annoying because the "units don't do what you want them to do" (and SC2 units really "do what you want them to do"). But... somehow its less balanced with the SC2 approach. ------- The key to a good strategy game is to accept and recognize the duality of Lanchester's Linear Law (ie: Risk rules), and Lanchester's Quadratic Law (ie: Axis and Allies). If you overly focus on the Quadratic law, you end up with death-balls. If you overly focus on the linear law, it feels like additional units don't support each other and the game feels very flat (ie: Risk-like). But if you have a rich continuum between the two laws, you end up with great gameplay (Starcraft: Brood War, AOE2, and Hearts of Iron 3). Let units get quadratically stronger as they flock together... but only to a point. (IE; the size of the front in Hearts of Iron 3. Or until the "Magic Box size" in Starcraft:Brood War). Once the units grow beyond that, they need to be hampered and grow more linearly, encouraging a more diverse set of combat situations.

drekipus 4y ago
nice writing. I think you have a good point with the "death-ball" approach. I haven't seen it put it that way. I'm a big SC:BW fan. I haven't played in a while but I love watching it, and I feel like the competitive RTS market is something that is waiting for a hero. SC2 really isn't it, for a multitude of reasons. (balled groups of units being one of them, imo) Frost Giant's first technical demo (presented in "the pylon show" forget which episode) was a "perfect flocking simulator" showing how the machine could multi-threaded handle 100 million units around a complex maze. I hated it. Give me the chaos of units bumping into each other and trying to find the optimal way with other moving agents in the way. Maybe not quite as bad as Dragoons and SCVs, but similar. There's the certain aspect of suspense and excitement that BW pro games have compared to SC2. "we all know that the unit has to move there and shoot, but will it get there in time? have they given it orders fast enough? is something going to block it?" -- it really ads to the atmosphere of excitement, knowing that the perfect play isn't going to be possible.
- dragontamer 4y ago
  > competitive RTS market is something that is waiting for a hero Really try Age of Empires 2. Its having a mild renaissance right now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u3HupyXyKQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u3HupyXyKQ Sure, its over 20 years old now, but its still getting new DLC, updates, and balance patches today.
  - drekipus 4y ago
    I'm 8 minutes in and the presentation level is astounding. And with the red-bull sponsorship I'm sure this has got a bit of the cash behind it to keep such a great presentation. Thanks for the link, I will definitely keep an eye out for this. I'll be watching the rest of this video through the day I think.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - 4y ago

spywaregorilla 4y ago

AoM was pretty solid in my opinion