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My kid just went through college selection process and I can assure you that the US News rankings are largely irrelevant in terms of decision making. The revea

My kid just went through college selection process and I can assure you that the US News rankings are largely irrelevant in terms of decision making. The revealed preference score[1] or global university rankings[2] are much closer to how students, their counselors, and their parents rank the universities. For instance, any ranking that does not have Stanford first among non specialized US universities (i.e. excluding MIT, Caltech, Julliard, etc.) is suspect. [1] https://www.parchment.com/c/college/college-rankings.php?page=1&perPage=25&thisYear=2021 https://www.parchment.com/c/college/college-rankings.php?pag... [2] https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2023 https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-un...

brianbreslin 4y ago
I work at a university, and honestly have never heard of this ranking that you referenced in [1]. Also seems super weighted towards military academies. What's their model? Are kids in the states now looking at more global options ?
- nemothekid 4y ago
  >What's their model? Are kids in the states now looking at more global options ? According to their methodology[1] page, it looks like for student who gets multiple offers they do an Elo style ranking. The first problem; and which probably explains the weight to military academies, is that students tend to self select into tiers of colleges, so a group of students who are interested in the Air Force might not even apply to Harvard (even though the USAFA is a competitive school) and upon admission opt to go there (after all if you even were even considering of joining the air force, why would you reject your one shot there to go any other school)? [1] https://www.parchment.com/c/college/college-rankings.php https://www.parchment.com/c/college/college-rankings.php
  - pyuser583 4y ago
    So this would favor specialized schools in general?
- hardtke 4y ago
  The revealed preference rankings use co-admittance data (student got into Harvard and Stanford) along with that student's final choice (went to Stanford) to rank the schools. The military academies will have a huge edge because their decisions come out later and most students are highly committed once they continue their application to that point (they've gotten congressional recommendations, passed physical exams, etc.). So basically throw those out.
  - marincounty 4y ago
t_mann 4y ago
I think it's easy to underestimate the impact of rankings. Just from your description, it seems that one of the most important overall decision factors for you seems to have been some sort of vague personal sense of how you'd rank them. That subjective ranking is probably influenced by a lot of factors, including many rankings that you consciously claim to disregard.
- hardtke 4y ago
  My personal opinion is that students are highly influenced by where the best students in the grades above them chose to apply, where they got in, and where they eventually chose to go. The software the students use also ranks how likely they are to get into each college/university based on the past performance of students at their high school with similar grades and test scores.
  - brewdad 4y ago
    That might be the one thing I would do over again. Move to a "better" HS for my kid, especially since he missed out on 1.5 years due to Covid anyway. His HS ranks top 15 in our state in college readiness scores but falls out of the top 50 overall since there are also a lot of poor students who are lucky to have parent at home at all and often are the surrogate parent for their single mom or dad. Basically, the top students are about as strong as any school in the area but the reputation gets dragged down by the kids who were never on the college track due to life circumstances and a limited support network. As a result, if you have your sights set on anything other than the two in-state schools or BYU (strong Mormon influence here) the counselors don't know what to do with you and you are on your own. It worked out and I have no doubt my kid will have strong opportunities post-college but he missed out on any chance at the truly life-changing schools, which I have no doubt he would have succeeded at had he gotten in.
rayiner 4y ago
> For instance, any ranking that does not have Stanford first among non specialized US universities (i.e. excluding MIT, Caltech, Julliard, etc.) is suspect. LOL wut? Stanford is modestly well known, but obviously Harvard is the one that is unambiguously first.
- gnicholas 4y ago
  I'd give Stanford a bit more credit than this, but people I know who were admitted to both all went to Harvard. Stanford is surely the most prestigious general-purpose university west of, well, Harvard.
  - corrral 4y ago
    > Stanford is surely the most prestigious general-purpose university west of, well, Harvard. Is that no longer Yale? From the perspective of someone who had a rather poor exposure to universities during my high school years—so, precisely what someone gets from pop-culture and osmosis without anyone in particular acting as a guide—my impression was that Harvard and Yale were unambiguously the Big Two, and everything else fell somewhere after them in terms of recognition and prestige. Is this a CS perspective? I hear a lot about Stanford's CS program so I assume it's notably good.
    - whimsicalism 4y ago
      I think Stanford is viewed as having eclipsed Yale and is competitive with Harvard. Princeton probably also eclipses Yale.
      - frognumber 4y ago
        Insider who worked with a lot of schools: Yale is a much, much better school than Stanford. Stanford beats Yale on hype. A lot of the elites are hype-over-substance, and it's often hard for a naive audience to screen out which ones.
        4y ago
gnicholas 4y ago
I find revealed preference to be very useful in many situations, but a ranking that has Harvard just below Swarthmore, at #61, does not pass the smell test. I say this as a graduate of Swarthmore — I cannot take seriously a list with Harvard so far down.
pyuser583 4y ago
It’s really weird Cambridge is ahead of Oxford in world rankings. Cambridge has a reputation for strongly preferring UK students.
- telotortium 4y ago
  Cambridge has traditionally been ahead in science and mathematics (e.g., it's where Newton was a professor). On the other hand, Oxford until the 1800s was pretty much a seminary and theological college. As a non-Brit, I still get the impression that Oxford is where you would find the best philosophers and other humanities experts, while Cambridge is still slightly ahead in STEM
  - AceyMan 4y ago
    Hmm ... Cambridge had Russell and Wittgenstein, e.g., you have that bass-akwards wrt Philosophy departments.

brianbreslin 4y ago

I work at a university, and honestly have never heard of this ranking that you referenced in [1]. Also seems super weighted towards military academies. What's their model? Are kids in the states now looking at more global options ?

nemothekid 4y ago
>What's their model? Are kids in the states now looking at more global options ? According to their methodology[1] page, it looks like for student who gets multiple offers they do an Elo style ranking. The first problem; and which probably explains the weight to military academies, is that students tend to self select into tiers of colleges, so a group of students who are interested in the Air Force might not even apply to Harvard (even though the USAFA is a competitive school) and upon admission opt to go there (after all if you even were even considering of joining the air force, why would you reject your one shot there to go any other school)? [1] https://www.parchment.com/c/college/college-rankings.php https://www.parchment.com/c/college/college-rankings.php
- pyuser583 4y ago
  So this would favor specialized schools in general?
hardtke 4y ago
The revealed preference rankings use co-admittance data (student got into Harvard and Stanford) along with that student's final choice (went to Stanford) to rank the schools. The military academies will have a huge edge because their decisions come out later and most students are highly committed once they continue their application to that point (they've gotten congressional recommendations, passed physical exams, etc.). So basically throw those out.
- marincounty 4y ago

t_mann 4y ago

I think it's easy to underestimate the impact of rankings. Just from your description, it seems that one of the most important overall decision factors for you seems to have been some sort of vague personal sense of how you'd rank them. That subjective ranking is probably influenced by a lot of factors, including many rankings that you consciously claim to disregard.

hardtke 4y ago
My personal opinion is that students are highly influenced by where the best students in the grades above them chose to apply, where they got in, and where they eventually chose to go. The software the students use also ranks how likely they are to get into each college/university based on the past performance of students at their high school with similar grades and test scores.
- brewdad 4y ago
  That might be the one thing I would do over again. Move to a "better" HS for my kid, especially since he missed out on 1.5 years due to Covid anyway. His HS ranks top 15 in our state in college readiness scores but falls out of the top 50 overall since there are also a lot of poor students who are lucky to have parent at home at all and often are the surrogate parent for their single mom or dad. Basically, the top students are about as strong as any school in the area but the reputation gets dragged down by the kids who were never on the college track due to life circumstances and a limited support network. As a result, if you have your sights set on anything other than the two in-state schools or BYU (strong Mormon influence here) the counselors don't know what to do with you and you are on your own. It worked out and I have no doubt my kid will have strong opportunities post-college but he missed out on any chance at the truly life-changing schools, which I have no doubt he would have succeeded at had he gotten in.

rayiner 4y ago

> For instance, any ranking that does not have Stanford first among non specialized US universities (i.e. excluding MIT, Caltech, Julliard, etc.) is suspect. LOL wut? Stanford is modestly well known, but obviously Harvard is the one that is unambiguously first.

gnicholas 4y ago
I'd give Stanford a bit more credit than this, but people I know who were admitted to both all went to Harvard. Stanford is surely the most prestigious general-purpose university west of, well, Harvard.
- corrral 4y ago
  > Stanford is surely the most prestigious general-purpose university west of, well, Harvard. Is that no longer Yale? From the perspective of someone who had a rather poor exposure to universities during my high school years—so, precisely what someone gets from pop-culture and osmosis without anyone in particular acting as a guide—my impression was that Harvard and Yale were unambiguously the Big Two, and everything else fell somewhere after them in terms of recognition and prestige. Is this a CS perspective? I hear a lot about Stanford's CS program so I assume it's notably good.
  - whimsicalism 4y ago
    I think Stanford is viewed as having eclipsed Yale and is competitive with Harvard. Princeton probably also eclipses Yale.
    - frognumber 4y ago
      Insider who worked with a lot of schools: Yale is a much, much better school than Stanford. Stanford beats Yale on hype. A lot of the elites are hype-over-substance, and it's often hard for a naive audience to screen out which ones.
      - 4y ago

gnicholas 4y ago

I find revealed preference to be very useful in many situations, but a ranking that has Harvard just below Swarthmore, at #61, does not pass the smell test. I say this as a graduate of Swarthmore — I cannot take seriously a list with Harvard so far down.

pyuser583 4y ago

It’s really weird Cambridge is ahead of Oxford in world rankings. Cambridge has a reputation for strongly preferring UK students.

telotortium 4y ago
Cambridge has traditionally been ahead in science and mathematics (e.g., it's where Newton was a professor). On the other hand, Oxford until the 1800s was pretty much a seminary and theological college. As a non-Brit, I still get the impression that Oxford is where you would find the best philosophers and other humanities experts, while Cambridge is still slightly ahead in STEM
- AceyMan 4y ago
  Hmm ... Cambridge had Russell and Wittgenstein, e.g., you have that bass-akwards wrt Philosophy departments.