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> It seems far more plausible to me that the differences in obesity between countries are caused by simple cultural habits than by some complex psychological ta

by csours 4y ago

> It seems far more plausible to me that the differences in obesity between countries are caused by simple cultural habits than by some complex psychological task called managing hunger, which seems less likely to be cultural. I don't see a clear point here. Culture has a HUGE impact on psychology. Also, managing hunger is Psychological AND Physiological.

fauigerzigerk 4y ago
>Culture has a HUGE impact on psychology. I would agree with that in general, but hunger seems like such an incredibly old issue to deal with from evolutionary perspective. Managing hunger is something "we" have been doing for millions of years and it has always been at the very center of our survival as a species. The idea that a cultural group could lose its ability to deal with such a key psychological and biological necessity in a short period of time just seems far less likely to me than a change in habits brought about by far more recent industrial and socioeconomic circumstances. Take that from yet another pseudonymous internet autodidact ;-)
- csours 4y ago
  > The idea that a cultural group could lose its ability to deal with such a key psychological and biological necessity in a short period of time just seems far less likely to me than a change in habits brought about by industrial and socio-economic circumstances. But those industrial and socio-economic circumstances also had a huge impact on culture! It's super complicated! I am not strongly anti-capitalist, but consider the impact of capitalism on food: Take low cost ingredients. Put them together in an appealing way. Sell the product at a relatively low price (higher than the ingredients, but not much). Advertise the product widely in such a way to condition people to desire your product. I am describing junk food of course. Walk into a convenience store or look at the checkout lines of a grocery store. Look at all the food you are conditioned to desire. edit: I am not blaming capitalism as the single cause of obesity. There is much more to it than that.
  - fauigerzigerk 4y ago
    Well, exactly, but would you really describe these cultural changes as a disease of managing hunger on an individual psychological level (which is how I understood the term)? If something like what you're describing is going on then our psychological ability to manage hunger hasn't changed at all. Other things have changed, which is my whole point.
    - csours 4y ago
      Yes, the conditions we live under have changed; the big question is "Why are some individuals so much more affected by the new environmental effects than others and what should we do about it" When we gain weight, we understand we need to eat less to lose weight. But that obviously does not work for many many people. I'm carrying excess fat right now. Abolishing capitalism or taxing soda (or whatever other social, political, or cultural changes you would make) won't get rid of that fat. It is commendable to work on the social causes of obesity. I frame it as an individual psychological issue because it is an individual experience. If it was a matter of finding "the right foods to eat and avoid" or any particular set of facts that could convey how to actually lose weight, then the problem would be solved. In other words, you can't tell someone to be hungry. Or at least, that doesn't sell any books or diet plans.
      - fauigerzigerk 4y ago
        I think you're absolutely right that as an individual you have to find solutions that work for yourself, not wait for some vague set of social conditions to change. I'm not even sure what those conditions are. Capitalism is easy to blame for everything because it creates choices, both good and bad ones. But some capitalist countries have an obesity problem and others far less so. Socialist Cuba is a lot more obese than most European countries. So I don't know what causes it on an epidemiological level and I have no solutions to offer. I'm merely questioning a particlar diagnosis. Framing the problem in a way that helps you personally is fine of course, but it's not the same thing as finding the truth about what causes the obesity epidemic.

by csours 4y ago

fauigerzigerk 4y ago

>Culture has a HUGE impact on psychology. I would agree with that in general, but hunger seems like such an incredibly old issue to deal with from evolutionary perspective. Managing hunger is something "we" have been doing for millions of years and it has always been at the very center of our survival as a species. The idea that a cultural group could lose its ability to deal with such a key psychological and biological necessity in a short period of time just seems far less likely to me than a change in habits brought about by far more recent industrial and socioeconomic circumstances. Take that from yet another pseudonymous internet autodidact ;-)

csours 4y ago
> The idea that a cultural group could lose its ability to deal with such a key psychological and biological necessity in a short period of time just seems far less likely to me than a change in habits brought about by industrial and socio-economic circumstances. But those industrial and socio-economic circumstances also had a huge impact on culture! It's super complicated! I am not strongly anti-capitalist, but consider the impact of capitalism on food: Take low cost ingredients. Put them together in an appealing way. Sell the product at a relatively low price (higher than the ingredients, but not much). Advertise the product widely in such a way to condition people to desire your product. I am describing junk food of course. Walk into a convenience store or look at the checkout lines of a grocery store. Look at all the food you are conditioned to desire. edit: I am not blaming capitalism as the single cause of obesity. There is much more to it than that.
- fauigerzigerk 4y ago
  Well, exactly, but would you really describe these cultural changes as a disease of managing hunger on an individual psychological level (which is how I understood the term)? If something like what you're describing is going on then our psychological ability to manage hunger hasn't changed at all. Other things have changed, which is my whole point.
  - csours 4y ago
    Yes, the conditions we live under have changed; the big question is "Why are some individuals so much more affected by the new environmental effects than others and what should we do about it" When we gain weight, we understand we need to eat less to lose weight. But that obviously does not work for many many people. I'm carrying excess fat right now. Abolishing capitalism or taxing soda (or whatever other social, political, or cultural changes you would make) won't get rid of that fat. It is commendable to work on the social causes of obesity. I frame it as an individual psychological issue because it is an individual experience. If it was a matter of finding "the right foods to eat and avoid" or any particular set of facts that could convey how to actually lose weight, then the problem would be solved. In other words, you can't tell someone to be hungry. Or at least, that doesn't sell any books or diet plans.
    - fauigerzigerk 4y ago
      I think you're absolutely right that as an individual you have to find solutions that work for yourself, not wait for some vague set of social conditions to change. I'm not even sure what those conditions are. Capitalism is easy to blame for everything because it creates choices, both good and bad ones. But some capitalist countries have an obesity problem and others far less so. Socialist Cuba is a lot more obese than most European countries. So I don't know what causes it on an epidemiological level and I have no solutions to offer. I'm merely questioning a particlar diagnosis. Framing the problem in a way that helps you personally is fine of course, but it's not the same thing as finding the truth about what causes the obesity epidemic.