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I am old enough to remember when the wife would call me at work on a Friday and say hey, stop by the video store and get a movie for tonight and I'll stop and g

I am old enough to remember when the wife would call me at work on a Friday and say hey, stop by the video store and get a movie for tonight and I'll stop and get wine and take out. What was special was the "Dave" at the video rental place (it wasn't blockbuster but whatever). I don't recall the guy's name, but he always remembered me and what we liked and had great suggestions and sometimes if you said, nah but how about something completely different, he would always find us something great. Or usually (one time he recommended Eraser head, we still laugh about that one, so even though it was a dud, great memory). I get it, today's AI is pretty good, meh, not really, but it would be hard to beat my old "Dave". Maybe someday.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Johnny555 4y ago
today's AI is pretty good It's pretty good at suggesting exactly the same type of movies you've watched before, but not so good at those "but how about something completely different, but something that I'll still like" suggestions, that's where a real human movie buff can help.
- usrn 4y ago
  I haven't thought about it but most of the movies I've really enjoyed were recommended to me by my dad, girlfriend, or my brother in law. I can't think of anything I really enjoyed from a recommendation algorithm. The last movie I tried I certainly didn't enjoy.
  - jvalencia 4y ago
    The reality is likely that the algorithms are trying to increase viewership, not quality of views. So they are likely to feed you things that get you to watch another thing, rather than things that are worth watching, leave you satisfied, and off doing something else.
- actusual 4y ago
  This isn't completely true. What you're talking about are called "echo chambers" or "filter bubbles", and there are ways to make sure they don't negatively impact users. Additionally, studies have found that (when A/B testing recommender system vs no recommender system) users create their own, more localized "echo chambers" in absence of a recommender. This is measured by the "diversity" of content consumed, which decreases if a user is their own recommender.
  - h0l0cube 4y ago
    > This is measured by the "diversity" of content consumed, which decreases if a user is their own recommender. The recommender in the GP and OP is a video store clerk, that’s probably self selected into that kind of job by their special interest in movies
- ryangittins 4y ago
  I've long pondered building exactly this, an anti-recommendation engine. You'd go through and mark some favorite films or genres, and it'd come back with something great but totally unlike your usual picks. Foreign flicks not your thing? Try Parasite. You don't remember what it's like to be an awkward pre-teen? Eighth Grade will remind you. Not a big action movie person? Maybe you need to watch Die Hard. Kids movies are just for kids? Spirited Away! You can't connect with female protagonists? You've got to see The Invisible Man. Don't find food interesting? Try Tampopo. Sick of movies which try to make a statement and fall flat? Promising Young Woman. Most dramas feel too contrived? Marriage Story. Musicals and plays aren't really your thing? Hamilton.
  - zw123456 4y ago
    Agree. Too much here is more of the same. Ugh. I like cowbell. Here is an endless loop of cowbell ringing and nothing else. It's like torture.
    - ahartmetz 4y ago
      Just noticed this again today. Spotify vs Hype Machine (browse, then "recommendations" by checking out people who also liked $song). Spotify is somehow stuck on dark, aggressive electronic music for me. It's not the only thing that I like, not even my favorite really.
      - vidarh 4y ago
        Music recommendations are even worse than movies, in that they need to take into account what you've just listened to (if I'm listening to a specific genre, I'm unlikely to want something in a very different tempo and style), time of day (at bed time I'll often put on some soft classical music; that doesn't mean I want that every other time because I play it a lot), mood (if I suddenly play 1980's pop, it's probably nostalgia, and suddenly playing new music is not what I want), and at the same time I have preferences, but those are mediated by what I'm currently listening to. Whenever I try to get a service or other to recommend music they are remarkably bad at this.
- jrochkind1 4y ago
  Remember when Netflix had the context for the best recommendation algorithm? I don't think they ended up using anything from it.
- dreamcompiler 4y ago
  Some of you will remember the "Pepsi Challenge" [0] when Pepsi would make commercials about random people tasting unlabeled soft drinks. People usually chose Pepsi in taste tests because it was sweeter than Coke. What the commercials didn't show was that most people actually bought Coke because Pepsi is too sweet for many people when they drink a whole bottle. Movie and music recommendation engines seem to work like this. Human tastes are much more complex and multi-dimensional than "This person prefers genre X" but AI systems don't even come close to grasping the subtlety. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepsi_Challenge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepsi_Challenge
- E4YomzYIN5YEBKe 4y ago
  Do Netflix et al inject "noise" into their recommendation engines? Like 1/10 titles are random rather than based on your preferences in order to break out of "local minimums".
dontcontactme 4y ago
I think there’s something to be said for the interaction involved in getting a recommendation from a human. An AI might recommend movies just as well as Dave did, but you presumably like Dave and enjoy talking to him about the movies you’ve seen. You don’t get that part of the experience with an AI recommendation.
antiterra 4y ago
Eraserhead wasn’t exactly a dud for me but it was deeply discomfiting and disturbing (clearly as intended.) Glad I’ve seen it, but very little interest in seeing it again.
- zw123456 4y ago
  Well. I would agree. You have to see it at least once to appreciate it :)
kylepdm 4y ago
I feel like the difference isn't so much that you have AI recommendations or that of a human, but rather the entire environment is fundamentally different. With Netflix or whatever Streaming Service you have you have an immense catalogue coupled with ease of access to get ratings/critiques/etc. There is so many things to choose from and it's so easy to just say "no" to a suggestion, and likely that thing you said "no" to will still be there tomorrow. Why not just keep browsing? With the video store of old it's so much more purposeful. You pick up a movie, and you feel incentivized to watch it because you literally just paid for it. You paid for that one Movie, not access to the entire store (which you also need to physically go to, and then come all the way back home with a tape or dvd). Also the ubiquity of movie/tv reviews was not as present so you don't necessarily feel like you're making a bad choice.
- zw123456 4y ago
  Exactly! Going to the video store was organic and analog. Like going to your barista that still insists on using the hand pump espresso machine. Perhaps the human touch still is the best?
- porknubbins 4y ago
  I think it also costs Netflix more to offer high quality films to stream so there is a disincentive to quality and you have to really search sometimes. Blockbuster was more random than efficient/algorithmic like you would find a classic next to a complete dud which was kind of fun.
- joshspankit 4y ago
  I fully agree but I also think that those “Daves” had something that current recommendation engines do not: an understanding of the many subtle things that make a movie right for you at that moment. It’s still going to be a while before a recommendation engine takes in to account the kind of day you’ve had, whether anyone else is going to join you, how you and your spouse are doing today, how you want to start the night, how you want to end the night, and so-on. A good staff member can answer all those questions just by looking you in the eyes.
- jrochkind1 4y ago
another_story 4y ago
I think what a lot of us are missing is human interaction, especially with strangers. No one is going to reminisce about that time the Netflix algorithm recommended a movie to them. Interactions with others, the stories and sense of community that can come out of it, not to mention building social skills, is being lost. We're making a better world for consumers, but sometimes I wonder if it's a better world for people.
- burrows 4y ago
  > We're making a better world for consumers, but sometimes I wonder if it's a better world for people. Have you actually on multiple occasions wondered about this? Or has your brain just been colonized by pithy statements?
  - another_story 4y ago
    Do you have anything constructive to say or are you just going to be a jerk?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
sailfast 4y ago
What's the website equivalent of Dave? Surely it has to exist somewhere? Maybe it's not personalized for you but it's close enough for a lot of people? I've visited a TON of taste-making sites and some used to be OK at suggesting what to watch, but it's been tough to find good ones lately, and I'd pay good money for somebody to sort through all of the cruft for me. You've got your "decider" and other sites, but something more personal, or at least human curated in terms of "here is the canon of this genre" or "if you liked this you'll 1000% like this other thing"
- avhon1 4y ago
  https://www.gnod.com/ https://www.gnod.com/ ?
  - sailfast 4y ago
    Worth a shot! After visiting it seems more like I'm training the thing rather than the thing helping me, but it's certainly interesting!
- Arkadin 4y ago
  IMO website equivalent of this is cinephile forums/trackers. You will get tons of high quality recommendations and find interesting non-mainstream content.
  - EricE 4y ago
    Agreed. And once you have a list of interesting contenders, sites like justwatch.com will help you track down where you can find them.
Uptrenda 4y ago
Now I'm thinking of the massive amount of content locked up in VHS tapes that future generations will probably never see due to copyright + lack of resources. I bet there's some absolute gems there.
- jrochkind1 4y ago
  Indeed, if it's only on VHS, it'll be degraded past watchability by the time of future generations. VHS doesn't last.
HeavenBanned 4y ago
Old "Dave" has something AI doesn't: artist's intuition.
prawn 4y ago
So many times visiting the video store as a kid, we'd get up to the counter and before the info was scanned or logged to the computer, the guy would say to my mum about her choice: "You borrowed this a couple of months ago." "Oh yeah. Whoops. I remember now." Meanwhile a priority row on streaming sites is WATCH IT AGAIN. And I do because the selection is so poor that I'd rather re-watch bits of favourite films over and over.
bluSCALE4 4y ago
When Netflix had the star system, I would get amazing recommendations. I would get a good feeling every time I opened Netflix because I was almost guaranteed a quality movie I would like. After Netflix moved onto thumbs up/down it was never the same and when Netflix started promoting their own shows, it got worse. I'm at the point where I hardly even watch it though I can't say the same for my kids.
- Arkadin 4y ago
  Compounded by moving away from massive dvd back catalog to limited streaming options. Not only are the recommendations worse but there is significantly less for them to recommend.
- loonster 4y ago
  I miss the comments the most. Seeing why someone rated something a certain way.
  - bluSCALE4 4y ago
    I don't even remember that.
    - loonster 4y ago
      Another trip down memory lane. Remember when you could comment on other people's amazon comments? Those comments were the best. I would often scroll through comments until I came to one with a long chain of replies. Then I would really have a good insight on what I may purchase.
kragen 4y ago
I was very surprised when I walked by a video rental store the other night. Most of them are gone now, of course, but apparently a few of them still survive. Blockbuster, though, no.
totetsu 4y ago
My friend managed a Video rental shop in the sunset of the the era. I remember him mentioning some trade publication, or magazine from the franchise that told employees ' if you like this movie, you'll probably like this too' kind of information.. Maybe the algorithms were already around back then, just the front end was a bit meatier.
turdit 4y ago
dave doesn’t extract the most capital or something like that
- swores 4y ago
  That's kind of both the upside and the downside to capitalism, I guess. If you wanted to pay old Blockbuster prices (adjusted for inflation) for x5 good, and personalised, Netflix recommendations a month, I'm sure what you have left after the subscription itself would find a bunch of movie buffs online happy to earn $20-50/month (I'm too lazy to figure out what a typical old monthly cost was, or would be after inflation) by learning what you've liked in the past and thinking of recommendations based on whichever platform you're subscribed to. And equally, some shops still exist selling films physically, though relatively few because most people don't want to pay more. Hey, maybe there's a startup idea there - connecting subscribers with paid individual recommenders. But I'll stick to not paying extra for members of staff I never asked recommendations of, personally.
safety1st 4y ago
What's funny about all this Blockbuster nostalgia is that back in the day they were actually the bad guys. They were the big homogenous corporate chain that drove all the independent stores out of business. One of their key differentiators was to overstock Hollywood blockbusters at the expense of indie films, art films, cult classics etc. and to make sure that the indie stores wouldn't be able to get their hands on the big titles when they first came out. Blockbuster always had the least interesting inventory of the rental places in our neighborhood and their employees tended to be less knowledgeable, but because they were the only place that was guaranteed to have the latest box office hits, they drove the other stores out of business. Their homogenization and crapification of the video rental industry is what created the opportunity for Netflix's rise -- NFLX's original DVD-by-mail catalog was vast and movie buffs could finally get their hands on the obscure classics they were no longer able to find locally.
- EricE 4y ago
  Yup - it's my first thought whenever I see these nostalgic accounts of Blockbuster - "What? People are pining for the bad guy again?!?"
- jrnichols 4y ago
  the dim back room of the local video store with the curtain over it is what kept some of our local ones in business as long as they did. yes, that porn selection was quite profitable.
m1gu3l 4y ago
now i want to see a GPT-3 based "Dave" wrapper-ui for netflix/hulu

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Johnny555 4y ago

today's AI is pretty good It's pretty good at suggesting exactly the same type of movies you've watched before, but not so good at those "but how about something completely different, but something that I'll still like" suggestions, that's where a real human movie buff can help.

usrn 4y ago
I haven't thought about it but most of the movies I've really enjoyed were recommended to me by my dad, girlfriend, or my brother in law. I can't think of anything I really enjoyed from a recommendation algorithm. The last movie I tried I certainly didn't enjoy.
- jvalencia 4y ago
  The reality is likely that the algorithms are trying to increase viewership, not quality of views. So they are likely to feed you things that get you to watch another thing, rather than things that are worth watching, leave you satisfied, and off doing something else.
actusual 4y ago
This isn't completely true. What you're talking about are called "echo chambers" or "filter bubbles", and there are ways to make sure they don't negatively impact users. Additionally, studies have found that (when A/B testing recommender system vs no recommender system) users create their own, more localized "echo chambers" in absence of a recommender. This is measured by the "diversity" of content consumed, which decreases if a user is their own recommender.
- h0l0cube 4y ago
  > This is measured by the "diversity" of content consumed, which decreases if a user is their own recommender. The recommender in the GP and OP is a video store clerk, that’s probably self selected into that kind of job by their special interest in movies
ryangittins 4y ago
I've long pondered building exactly this, an anti-recommendation engine. You'd go through and mark some favorite films or genres, and it'd come back with something great but totally unlike your usual picks. Foreign flicks not your thing? Try Parasite. You don't remember what it's like to be an awkward pre-teen? Eighth Grade will remind you. Not a big action movie person? Maybe you need to watch Die Hard. Kids movies are just for kids? Spirited Away! You can't connect with female protagonists? You've got to see The Invisible Man. Don't find food interesting? Try Tampopo. Sick of movies which try to make a statement and fall flat? Promising Young Woman. Most dramas feel too contrived? Marriage Story. Musicals and plays aren't really your thing? Hamilton.
- zw123456 4y ago
  Agree. Too much here is more of the same. Ugh. I like cowbell. Here is an endless loop of cowbell ringing and nothing else. It's like torture.
  - ahartmetz 4y ago
    Just noticed this again today. Spotify vs Hype Machine (browse, then "recommendations" by checking out people who also liked $song). Spotify is somehow stuck on dark, aggressive electronic music for me. It's not the only thing that I like, not even my favorite really.
    - vidarh 4y ago
      Music recommendations are even worse than movies, in that they need to take into account what you've just listened to (if I'm listening to a specific genre, I'm unlikely to want something in a very different tempo and style), time of day (at bed time I'll often put on some soft classical music; that doesn't mean I want that every other time because I play it a lot), mood (if I suddenly play 1980's pop, it's probably nostalgia, and suddenly playing new music is not what I want), and at the same time I have preferences, but those are mediated by what I'm currently listening to. Whenever I try to get a service or other to recommend music they are remarkably bad at this.
jrochkind1 4y ago
Remember when Netflix had the context for the best recommendation algorithm? I don't think they ended up using anything from it.
dreamcompiler 4y ago
Some of you will remember the "Pepsi Challenge" [0] when Pepsi would make commercials about random people tasting unlabeled soft drinks. People usually chose Pepsi in taste tests because it was sweeter than Coke. What the commercials didn't show was that most people actually bought Coke because Pepsi is too sweet for many people when they drink a whole bottle. Movie and music recommendation engines seem to work like this. Human tastes are much more complex and multi-dimensional than "This person prefers genre X" but AI systems don't even come close to grasping the subtlety. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepsi_Challenge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepsi_Challenge
E4YomzYIN5YEBKe 4y ago
Do Netflix et al inject "noise" into their recommendation engines? Like 1/10 titles are random rather than based on your preferences in order to break out of "local minimums".

dontcontactme 4y ago

I think there’s something to be said for the interaction involved in getting a recommendation from a human. An AI might recommend movies just as well as Dave did, but you presumably like Dave and enjoy talking to him about the movies you’ve seen. You don’t get that part of the experience with an AI recommendation.

antiterra 4y ago

Eraserhead wasn’t exactly a dud for me but it was deeply discomfiting and disturbing (clearly as intended.) Glad I’ve seen it, but very little interest in seeing it again.

zw123456 4y ago
Well. I would agree. You have to see it at least once to appreciate it :)

kylepdm 4y ago

I feel like the difference isn't so much that you have AI recommendations or that of a human, but rather the entire environment is fundamentally different. With Netflix or whatever Streaming Service you have you have an immense catalogue coupled with ease of access to get ratings/critiques/etc. There is so many things to choose from and it's so easy to just say "no" to a suggestion, and likely that thing you said "no" to will still be there tomorrow. Why not just keep browsing? With the video store of old it's so much more purposeful. You pick up a movie, and you feel incentivized to watch it because you literally just paid for it. You paid for that one Movie, not access to the entire store (which you also need to physically go to, and then come all the way back home with a tape or dvd). Also the ubiquity of movie/tv reviews was not as present so you don't necessarily feel like you're making a bad choice.

zw123456 4y ago
Exactly! Going to the video store was organic and analog. Like going to your barista that still insists on using the hand pump espresso machine. Perhaps the human touch still is the best?
porknubbins 4y ago
I think it also costs Netflix more to offer high quality films to stream so there is a disincentive to quality and you have to really search sometimes. Blockbuster was more random than efficient/algorithmic like you would find a classic next to a complete dud which was kind of fun.
joshspankit 4y ago
I fully agree but I also think that those “Daves” had something that current recommendation engines do not: an understanding of the many subtle things that make a movie right for you at that moment. It’s still going to be a while before a recommendation engine takes in to account the kind of day you’ve had, whether anyone else is going to join you, how you and your spouse are doing today, how you want to start the night, how you want to end the night, and so-on. A good staff member can answer all those questions just by looking you in the eyes.
jrochkind1 4y ago

another_story 4y ago

I think what a lot of us are missing is human interaction, especially with strangers. No one is going to reminisce about that time the Netflix algorithm recommended a movie to them. Interactions with others, the stories and sense of community that can come out of it, not to mention building social skills, is being lost. We're making a better world for consumers, but sometimes I wonder if it's a better world for people.

burrows 4y ago
> We're making a better world for consumers, but sometimes I wonder if it's a better world for people. Have you actually on multiple occasions wondered about this? Or has your brain just been colonized by pithy statements?
- another_story 4y ago
  Do you have anything constructive to say or are you just going to be a jerk?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

sailfast 4y ago

What's the website equivalent of Dave? Surely it has to exist somewhere? Maybe it's not personalized for you but it's close enough for a lot of people? I've visited a TON of taste-making sites and some used to be OK at suggesting what to watch, but it's been tough to find good ones lately, and I'd pay good money for somebody to sort through all of the cruft for me. You've got your "decider" and other sites, but something more personal, or at least human curated in terms of "here is the canon of this genre" or "if you liked this you'll 1000% like this other thing"

avhon1 4y ago
https://www.gnod.com/ https://www.gnod.com/ ?
- sailfast 4y ago
  Worth a shot! After visiting it seems more like I'm training the thing rather than the thing helping me, but it's certainly interesting!
Arkadin 4y ago
IMO website equivalent of this is cinephile forums/trackers. You will get tons of high quality recommendations and find interesting non-mainstream content.
- EricE 4y ago
  Agreed. And once you have a list of interesting contenders, sites like justwatch.com will help you track down where you can find them.

Uptrenda 4y ago

Now I'm thinking of the massive amount of content locked up in VHS tapes that future generations will probably never see due to copyright + lack of resources. I bet there's some absolute gems there.

jrochkind1 4y ago
Indeed, if it's only on VHS, it'll be degraded past watchability by the time of future generations. VHS doesn't last.

HeavenBanned 4y ago

Old "Dave" has something AI doesn't: artist's intuition.

prawn 4y ago

So many times visiting the video store as a kid, we'd get up to the counter and before the info was scanned or logged to the computer, the guy would say to my mum about her choice: "You borrowed this a couple of months ago." "Oh yeah. Whoops. I remember now." Meanwhile a priority row on streaming sites is WATCH IT AGAIN. And I do because the selection is so poor that I'd rather re-watch bits of favourite films over and over.

bluSCALE4 4y ago

When Netflix had the star system, I would get amazing recommendations. I would get a good feeling every time I opened Netflix because I was almost guaranteed a quality movie I would like. After Netflix moved onto thumbs up/down it was never the same and when Netflix started promoting their own shows, it got worse. I'm at the point where I hardly even watch it though I can't say the same for my kids.

Arkadin 4y ago
Compounded by moving away from massive dvd back catalog to limited streaming options. Not only are the recommendations worse but there is significantly less for them to recommend.
loonster 4y ago
I miss the comments the most. Seeing why someone rated something a certain way.
- bluSCALE4 4y ago
  I don't even remember that.
  - loonster 4y ago
    Another trip down memory lane. Remember when you could comment on other people's amazon comments? Those comments were the best. I would often scroll through comments until I came to one with a long chain of replies. Then I would really have a good insight on what I may purchase.

kragen 4y ago

I was very surprised when I walked by a video rental store the other night. Most of them are gone now, of course, but apparently a few of them still survive. Blockbuster, though, no.

totetsu 4y ago

My friend managed a Video rental shop in the sunset of the the era. I remember him mentioning some trade publication, or magazine from the franchise that told employees ' if you like this movie, you'll probably like this too' kind of information.. Maybe the algorithms were already around back then, just the front end was a bit meatier.

turdit 4y ago

dave doesn’t extract the most capital or something like that

swores 4y ago
That's kind of both the upside and the downside to capitalism, I guess. If you wanted to pay old Blockbuster prices (adjusted for inflation) for x5 good, and personalised, Netflix recommendations a month, I'm sure what you have left after the subscription itself would find a bunch of movie buffs online happy to earn $20-50/month (I'm too lazy to figure out what a typical old monthly cost was, or would be after inflation) by learning what you've liked in the past and thinking of recommendations based on whichever platform you're subscribed to. And equally, some shops still exist selling films physically, though relatively few because most people don't want to pay more. Hey, maybe there's a startup idea there - connecting subscribers with paid individual recommenders. But I'll stick to not paying extra for members of staff I never asked recommendations of, personally.

safety1st 4y ago

What's funny about all this Blockbuster nostalgia is that back in the day they were actually the bad guys. They were the big homogenous corporate chain that drove all the independent stores out of business. One of their key differentiators was to overstock Hollywood blockbusters at the expense of indie films, art films, cult classics etc. and to make sure that the indie stores wouldn't be able to get their hands on the big titles when they first came out. Blockbuster always had the least interesting inventory of the rental places in our neighborhood and their employees tended to be less knowledgeable, but because they were the only place that was guaranteed to have the latest box office hits, they drove the other stores out of business. Their homogenization and crapification of the video rental industry is what created the opportunity for Netflix's rise -- NFLX's original DVD-by-mail catalog was vast and movie buffs could finally get their hands on the obscure classics they were no longer able to find locally.

EricE 4y ago
Yup - it's my first thought whenever I see these nostalgic accounts of Blockbuster - "What? People are pining for the bad guy again?!?"
jrnichols 4y ago
the dim back room of the local video store with the curtain over it is what kept some of our local ones in business as long as they did. yes, that porn selection was quite profitable.

m1gu3l 4y ago

now i want to see a GPT-3 based "Dave" wrapper-ui for netflix/hulu