6 ms·

Europe has a lot of braindrain as well. If you are truly talented, why would you stay (many don't)? Either you're not that good, or something else is tethering

Europe has a lot of braindrain as well. If you are truly talented, why would you stay (many don't)? Either you're not that good, or something else is tethering you here (many valid reasons).

jltsiren 4y ago
Why would you leave anymore, as remote working has become common? Quality of life has always been a major reason for staying in Europe, while low professional salaries have driven many away. Today the latter is much less important than it used to be.
- iasay 4y ago
  If you’re paid in dollars, rising prices, rising energy costs.
- baal80spam 4y ago
  > Why would you leave anymore, as remote working has become common? Maybe because, IME, 90% of US offers are: Remote (US based)?
- junipertea 4y ago
  1. It's not as common as everyone claims. 2. Big money comes with US companies, and then you can be at whim of US timezone, or worse, a big company that is not remote-first or asynchronous.
TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
You get decent healthcare that won't bankrupt you even if you're comfortable. And you're a few orders of magnitude less likely to get shot by some rando. Also longer vacations and a more relaxed working environment. I know of far more people heading to the EU from the US than the other direction.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Brain drain and crippling healthcare debt affect two entirely different demographics. If you have a top tech job in the US you good have insurance.
  - jjav 4y ago
    > If you have a top tech job in the US you good have insurance. Relative to health care in the EU, not that good. Top-tier platinum PPO from top silicon valley employers is still going to cost a lot out of pocket (way above the so-called max out of pocket) if you have health expenses and that's on top of the $25K-$30K we're paying for the coverage itself.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Why would it cost more than the “so called max out of pocket”? A top tier platinum plan will, per the legal definition of platinum, pay for 90% of expected health expenses. Max out of pocket should be less than $5k for a family of 4 on a platinum plan, and the employer will be paying 70%+ of the premiums, if not more. Assuming you are seeing in network providers, which for a top tier platinum PPO should be almost all doctors, and a BCBS plan would be nationwide, then your premiums would be say $500 per month for a family of four, and out of pocket max will be $5k per year at most. Total expenses of $11k per year for the most expensive locale in the US. And that is assuming you max out health spending every year, which probably will not happen. And that is off the family has only one working adult. And you get an HSA to invest $7.3k per year and withdraw it tax free at any point in the future. You can have a few hundreds of thousands saved up for healthcare expenses by the time you retire, all tax free.
      - zerocrates 4y ago
        You can't have a top-tier plan and an HSA, can you? I was pretty sure HSAs were only available to those on high-deductible plans. People on traditional plans can have FSAs but those typically don't let you really accrue from year to year.
ekkeke 4y ago
I don't think many people I know would abandon family, friends, language, and culture to move to a different country unless the incentive was very high. Moving to the USA is also quite hard and the rhetoric around it isn't great so even a double or triple salary (which I've heard is the norm in some industries eg. software) isn't particularly tempting. I doubt Germany, France, Austria etc. would see much significant drain. Poorer countries (eg Poland) have been already hit quite hard and might be impacted a lot more by this though.
LeanderK 4y ago
because Europe has a incredible quality of life? Where would you move? There are some attractive cities outside but they are not many imho. I don't want to drive a car, want to live urban and with a lot of alternative culture around me. I am done with suburbia. It's the other way around, why should I move? There's quite a few reasons to stay in Europe. It's not all about money (assuming inflation stays manageable, but it's a war here, who knows). I also doubt the amount of braindrain, i see a lot of brain-gain where I live (in the south of germany and I don't include europeans).
davnn 4y ago
That relies on the assumption that money is the sole reason to decide where to live. Even from a monetary perspective, top talent can easily earn >100k€/year in Europe too, which enables a very good lifestyle given that you have to spend way less on social services. That‘s not to mention the rise of remote work if you prefer to work a US-based company.
- spiderice 4y ago
  > less on social services Less? By what metric? The tax burden is lower in the US than in Europe by a good amount. Does paying a lot more in taxes not count toward paying for social services?
  - bornfreddy 4y ago
    You pay more in taxes, but when you become more vulnerable (older, less healthy) you are safer. The problem with money savings is that they might not keep their value. Last thing I want is to be old, ill, broke and living in a country with no free social services. That said, it all depends on the risks one wants to take... Life is dangerous. :)
    - hcks 4y ago
      Let’s see how “safer” Europeans are by the end of next winter
  - davnn 4y ago
    You are right - it would be better to compare something like the yearly middle-class lifestyle spendings of a 100k€ and 200k$ family all things considered. I would think the difference is smaller than expected considering housing alone. However, a large drawback in Europe is that the upper-ceiling of earnings in Tech is much lower than in the US, there is not much air above 150k€ unless working in management at a large corp.
avgcorrection 4y ago
So why would stay when there are many valid reasons to stay? I’m confused.
Moldoteck 4y ago
Canada is a much better option for many, because pay is closer to us but people also get nice healthcare. The best option would be Switzerland. On the other hand in Eu there are places where qol is much better compared to what you can get in us(be that Netherlands, Denmark, some parts of germany/france/spain) and this qol is improving each ear even in poorer eu countries. Tech workers can get a more than decent pay at faang style companies or by working remotely for us
- acchow 4y ago
  > but people also get nice healthcare By all accounts of everyone I know in Canada and also those in Canadian Healthcare, the system is on the verge of collapsing
fleddr 4y ago
Citation needed, specifically regarding your use of the term "a lot". Sure enough, if you take the small percentage of extreme tech talent or very entrepreneurial employees, many in that group might consider taking their business to the US. But how much is that really? 1%? 5%? Can't be much more. So, 95-99% don't...hardly a brain drain. The other thing Americans can't seem to comprehend is that not everybody is a dollar-chaser. For the typical European, if they have a decent quality of life and some reasonable disposable income, they are satisfied. Bread and games as they say.
- worker_person 4y ago
  For Federal Income Taxes * Top 1% pay 48% of all income taxes * Top 5% pay 59% of all income taxes * Top 50% pay 96% of all income taxes * Bottom 50% pay 3% of all income taxes https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page/who-pays-income-taxes https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page/who-pays-income-taxe...
  - fleddr 4y ago
    Can you clarify what those numbers try to show? The point I made is that I don't expect a "lot of braindrain" from Europe and that this concerns a tiny percentage willing to move to the US. What is the relation with the tax revenue you shared?
TrackerFF 4y ago
It could be as simple as just enjoying your 40 hour workweeks and 2-4 weeks of vacation, which many western European countries have written in stone / law. The counterpoint to that will often be "But, why not just work extra hard in the US for 10-20 years, and then retire? I'd much rather work hard now, and then live my life at [30/35/40]" which is probably also a valid point, but Americans will soon notice that Europeans are in a much less hurry to "retire". It all comes down to labor laws, and work/life balance. There are TONS of talented workers in Europe, that live just fine as it is. And many just truly enjoy a relaxed, easy, and predictable lifestyle.

Europe has a lot of braindrain as well. If you are truly talented, why would you stay (many don't)? Either you're not that good, or something else is tethering you here (many valid reasons).

jltsiren 4y ago

Why would you leave anymore, as remote working has become common? Quality of life has always been a major reason for staying in Europe, while low professional salaries have driven many away. Today the latter is much less important than it used to be.

iasay 4y ago
If you’re paid in dollars, rising prices, rising energy costs.
baal80spam 4y ago
> Why would you leave anymore, as remote working has become common? Maybe because, IME, 90% of US offers are: Remote (US based)?
junipertea 4y ago
1. It's not as common as everyone claims. 2. Big money comes with US companies, and then you can be at whim of US timezone, or worse, a big company that is not remote-first or asynchronous.

TheOtherHobbes 4y ago

You get decent healthcare that won't bankrupt you even if you're comfortable. And you're a few orders of magnitude less likely to get shot by some rando. Also longer vacations and a more relaxed working environment. I know of far more people heading to the EU from the US than the other direction.

kube-system 4y ago
Brain drain and crippling healthcare debt affect two entirely different demographics. If you have a top tech job in the US you good have insurance.
- jjav 4y ago
  > If you have a top tech job in the US you good have insurance. Relative to health care in the EU, not that good. Top-tier platinum PPO from top silicon valley employers is still going to cost a lot out of pocket (way above the so-called max out of pocket) if you have health expenses and that's on top of the $25K-$30K we're paying for the coverage itself.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Why would it cost more than the “so called max out of pocket”? A top tier platinum plan will, per the legal definition of platinum, pay for 90% of expected health expenses. Max out of pocket should be less than $5k for a family of 4 on a platinum plan, and the employer will be paying 70%+ of the premiums, if not more. Assuming you are seeing in network providers, which for a top tier platinum PPO should be almost all doctors, and a BCBS plan would be nationwide, then your premiums would be say $500 per month for a family of four, and out of pocket max will be $5k per year at most. Total expenses of $11k per year for the most expensive locale in the US. And that is assuming you max out health spending every year, which probably will not happen. And that is off the family has only one working adult. And you get an HSA to invest $7.3k per year and withdraw it tax free at any point in the future. You can have a few hundreds of thousands saved up for healthcare expenses by the time you retire, all tax free.
    - zerocrates 4y ago
      You can't have a top-tier plan and an HSA, can you? I was pretty sure HSAs were only available to those on high-deductible plans. People on traditional plans can have FSAs but those typically don't let you really accrue from year to year.

ekkeke 4y ago

I don't think many people I know would abandon family, friends, language, and culture to move to a different country unless the incentive was very high. Moving to the USA is also quite hard and the rhetoric around it isn't great so even a double or triple salary (which I've heard is the norm in some industries eg. software) isn't particularly tempting. I doubt Germany, France, Austria etc. would see much significant drain. Poorer countries (eg Poland) have been already hit quite hard and might be impacted a lot more by this though.

LeanderK 4y ago

because Europe has a incredible quality of life? Where would you move? There are some attractive cities outside but they are not many imho. I don't want to drive a car, want to live urban and with a lot of alternative culture around me. I am done with suburbia. It's the other way around, why should I move? There's quite a few reasons to stay in Europe. It's not all about money (assuming inflation stays manageable, but it's a war here, who knows). I also doubt the amount of braindrain, i see a lot of brain-gain where I live (in the south of germany and I don't include europeans).

davnn 4y ago

That relies on the assumption that money is the sole reason to decide where to live. Even from a monetary perspective, top talent can easily earn >100k€/year in Europe too, which enables a very good lifestyle given that you have to spend way less on social services. That‘s not to mention the rise of remote work if you prefer to work a US-based company.

spiderice 4y ago
> less on social services Less? By what metric? The tax burden is lower in the US than in Europe by a good amount. Does paying a lot more in taxes not count toward paying for social services?
- bornfreddy 4y ago
  You pay more in taxes, but when you become more vulnerable (older, less healthy) you are safer. The problem with money savings is that they might not keep their value. Last thing I want is to be old, ill, broke and living in a country with no free social services. That said, it all depends on the risks one wants to take... Life is dangerous. :)
  - hcks 4y ago
    Let’s see how “safer” Europeans are by the end of next winter
- davnn 4y ago
  You are right - it would be better to compare something like the yearly middle-class lifestyle spendings of a 100k€ and 200k$ family all things considered. I would think the difference is smaller than expected considering housing alone. However, a large drawback in Europe is that the upper-ceiling of earnings in Tech is much lower than in the US, there is not much air above 150k€ unless working in management at a large corp.

avgcorrection 4y ago

So why would stay when there are many valid reasons to stay? I’m confused.

Moldoteck 4y ago

Canada is a much better option for many, because pay is closer to us but people also get nice healthcare. The best option would be Switzerland. On the other hand in Eu there are places where qol is much better compared to what you can get in us(be that Netherlands, Denmark, some parts of germany/france/spain) and this qol is improving each ear even in poorer eu countries. Tech workers can get a more than decent pay at faang style companies or by working remotely for us

acchow 4y ago
> but people also get nice healthcare By all accounts of everyone I know in Canada and also those in Canadian Healthcare, the system is on the verge of collapsing

fleddr 4y ago

Citation needed, specifically regarding your use of the term "a lot". Sure enough, if you take the small percentage of extreme tech talent or very entrepreneurial employees, many in that group might consider taking their business to the US. But how much is that really? 1%? 5%? Can't be much more. So, 95-99% don't...hardly a brain drain. The other thing Americans can't seem to comprehend is that not everybody is a dollar-chaser. For the typical European, if they have a decent quality of life and some reasonable disposable income, they are satisfied. Bread and games as they say.

worker_person 4y ago
For Federal Income Taxes * Top 1% pay 48% of all income taxes * Top 5% pay 59% of all income taxes * Top 50% pay 96% of all income taxes * Bottom 50% pay 3% of all income taxes https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page/who-pays-income-taxes https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page/who-pays-income-taxe...
- fleddr 4y ago
  Can you clarify what those numbers try to show? The point I made is that I don't expect a "lot of braindrain" from Europe and that this concerns a tiny percentage willing to move to the US. What is the relation with the tax revenue you shared?

TrackerFF 4y ago

It could be as simple as just enjoying your 40 hour workweeks and 2-4 weeks of vacation, which many western European countries have written in stone / law. The counterpoint to that will often be "But, why not just work extra hard in the US for 10-20 years, and then retire? I'd much rather work hard now, and then live my life at [30/35/40]" which is probably also a valid point, but Americans will soon notice that Europeans are in a much less hurry to "retire". It all comes down to labor laws, and work/life balance. There are TONS of talented workers in Europe, that live just fine as it is. And many just truly enjoy a relaxed, easy, and predictable lifestyle.