4 ms·

But the primary source documents all agree that Ulbricht wasn't charged or convicted with murder-for-hire and that the agent Ulbricht contracted with was arrest

But the primary source documents all agree that Ulbricht wasn't charged or convicted with murder-for-hire and that the agent Ulbricht contracted with was arrested and convicted for corruption-related crimes. It's also obviously not true that somebody has to be dead for the state to charge murder-for-hire related crimes. If that were the case, the state wouldn't have agents pretending to be hitmen to catch people trying to hire hitmen.

tptacek 4y ago
I really don't know how to state this any more plainly: he was charged, in the same manner as other drug kingpins have been charged, with a narcotics conspiracy whose overt acts --- in the indictment, as charged behavior, which the jury had to find true beyond a reasonable doubt --- were comprised of two different murder-for-hire schemes. He was convicted of that charge. He appealed, and his appeal didn't contest that charge or any of the findings of fact (or, for that matter, testimony leading up to that finding of fact) for that charge. The second bit, about nobody needing to be dead for him to be charged, we agree on. One reason I think people are confused about this is that there was a second prosecution, by a different team of prosecutors in a different case (out of Baltimore?) that charged the murder-for-hire scheme more directly. That may be, but he was still charged for it in the SDNY case, which earned him a life sentence. SDNY was not evasive about this! They not only indicted for the murder-for-hire scheme, won a conviction on it, and had him sentenced based in large part on it, but also crowed about it in their press release. I'm sort of baffled by the extremely common belief that the DOJ "dropped the charges" about the murder-for-hire scheme. They did more or less the opposite thing.
- ALittleLight 4y ago
  "Ulbricht, 31, of San Francisco, California, was convicted of the following seven offenses after a four-week jury trial: distributing narcotics, distributing narcotics by means of the Internet, conspiring to distribute narcotics, engaging in a continuing criminal enterprise, conspiring to commit computer hacking, conspiring to traffic in false identity documents, and conspiring to commit money laundering." https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/ross-ulbricht-aka-dread-pirate-roberts-sentenced-life-federal-prison-creating https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/ross-ulbricht-aka-dread-pi... Noticeably not on that list is anything related to murder, attempted murder, solicitation of murder, or murder-for-hire. If I understand you correctly you are saying that the attempted murder is an element of his continuing criminal enterprise - or something like that. I don't believe this though and I haven't seen any evidence of this from you. Googling for people who are convicted for hiring fake hitmen I see that they are charged with things like "Solicitation of murder" and not "Continuing criminal enterprise." Ulbricht was not charged with murder for hire in New York and he wasn't convicted of it ever. Ulbricht was charged with murder for hire in Maryland and those charges were dropped.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/ross-ulbricht-creator-and-owner-silk-road-website-found-guilty-manhattan-federal-court https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/ross-ulbricht-creator-a...
    - ALittleLight 4y ago
      This press release does not claim that Ross Ulbricht was convicted of murder or anything related to it. It says "found guilty yesterday on all seven counts in connection" and, later "ULBRICHT, 30, of San Francisco, California, was found guilty of: one count of distributing narcotics, one count of distributing narcotics by means of the Internet, and one count of conspiring to distribute narcotics, each of which carries a maximum sentence of life in prison and a mandatory minimum sentence of 10 years; one count of engaging in a continuing criminal enterprise, which carries a maximum sentence of life in prison and a mandatory minimum sentence of 20 years in prison; one of count of conspiring to commit computer hacking, which carries a maximum sentence of five years in prison; one count of conspiring to traffic in false identity documents, which carries a maximum sentence of 15 years; and one count of conspiring to commit money laundering, which carries a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison. The maximum sentences are prescribed by Congress and are provided for informational purposes only, as the sentence will be determined by the judge. ULBRICHT is scheduled to be sentenced on May 15, 2015." So, we have... 1. distributing narcotics 2. distributing narcotics via the internet 3. count of conspiring to distribute narcotics 4. engaging in a continuing criminal enterprise 5. conspiring to commit computer hacking 6. conspiring to traffic in false identity documents 7. conspiring to traffic in false identity documents That's all seven and none of them are murder, conspiracy to commit murder, attempted murder, or solicitation of murder.
      - jokabrink 4y ago
        I think I can clear it up: The accusation of murder-for-hire would not hold up. The FBI would not be able to prove the required elements for the deed, because in order to prove it, the FBI would need to actually drive or mail something with the intent of murder [1]. In the released indictment [2] (Apparently there seems to be a superseding indictment), DPR was charged on four counts. Count one is "Narcotics Trafficking Conspiracy", none of the counts are "Murder-For-Hire". But, there are three overt (motivating) acts for the "Narcotics Trafficking Conspiracy": a) Provide a platform for selling drugs b) Solicit a murder-for-hire c) Logging in as admin on Silk Road So, while the charge "Murder-For-Hire" probably seems hard to prove (as stated above), using the intent of it to justify the count "Narcotics Trafficking Conspiracy" worked here. In a sense, I believe, DPR can not be labeled officially with "murder-for-hire", but in order to protect his "Continuing Criminal Enterprise" and as such commit "Narcotics Trafficking Conspiracy" it appears that he would have committed a "murder-for-hire" crime. Sources: [1] https://www.springsteadbartish.com/federal-criminal-defense-attorneys/federal-murder-for-hire-charges/ https://www.springsteadbartish.com/federal-criminal-defense-... [2] https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/usao-sdny/legacy/2015/03/25/US%20v.%20Ross%20Ulbricht%20Indictment.pdf https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/usao-sdny/legacy...

tptacek 4y ago

I really don't know how to state this any more plainly: he was charged, in the same manner as other drug kingpins have been charged, with a narcotics conspiracy whose overt acts --- in the indictment, as charged behavior, which the jury had to find true beyond a reasonable doubt --- were comprised of two different murder-for-hire schemes. He was convicted of that charge. He appealed, and his appeal didn't contest that charge or any of the findings of fact (or, for that matter, testimony leading up to that finding of fact) for that charge. The second bit, about nobody needing to be dead for him to be charged, we agree on. One reason I think people are confused about this is that there was a second prosecution, by a different team of prosecutors in a different case (out of Baltimore?) that charged the murder-for-hire scheme more directly. That may be, but he was still charged for it in the SDNY case, which earned him a life sentence. SDNY was not evasive about this! They not only indicted for the murder-for-hire scheme, won a conviction on it, and had him sentenced based in large part on it, but also crowed about it in their press release. I'm sort of baffled by the extremely common belief that the DOJ "dropped the charges" about the murder-for-hire scheme. They did more or less the opposite thing.

ALittleLight 4y ago
"Ulbricht, 31, of San Francisco, California, was convicted of the following seven offenses after a four-week jury trial: distributing narcotics, distributing narcotics by means of the Internet, conspiring to distribute narcotics, engaging in a continuing criminal enterprise, conspiring to commit computer hacking, conspiring to traffic in false identity documents, and conspiring to commit money laundering." https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/ross-ulbricht-aka-dread-pirate-roberts-sentenced-life-federal-prison-creating https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/ross-ulbricht-aka-dread-pi... Noticeably not on that list is anything related to murder, attempted murder, solicitation of murder, or murder-for-hire. If I understand you correctly you are saying that the attempted murder is an element of his continuing criminal enterprise - or something like that. I don't believe this though and I haven't seen any evidence of this from you. Googling for people who are convicted for hiring fake hitmen I see that they are charged with things like "Solicitation of murder" and not "Continuing criminal enterprise." Ulbricht was not charged with murder for hire in New York and he wasn't convicted of it ever. Ulbricht was charged with murder for hire in Maryland and those charges were dropped.
- tptacek 4y ago
  https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/ross-ulbricht-creator-and-owner-silk-road-website-found-guilty-manhattan-federal-court https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/ross-ulbricht-creator-a...
  - ALittleLight 4y ago
    This press release does not claim that Ross Ulbricht was convicted of murder or anything related to it. It says "found guilty yesterday on all seven counts in connection" and, later "ULBRICHT, 30, of San Francisco, California, was found guilty of: one count of distributing narcotics, one count of distributing narcotics by means of the Internet, and one count of conspiring to distribute narcotics, each of which carries a maximum sentence of life in prison and a mandatory minimum sentence of 10 years; one count of engaging in a continuing criminal enterprise, which carries a maximum sentence of life in prison and a mandatory minimum sentence of 20 years in prison; one of count of conspiring to commit computer hacking, which carries a maximum sentence of five years in prison; one count of conspiring to traffic in false identity documents, which carries a maximum sentence of 15 years; and one count of conspiring to commit money laundering, which carries a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison. The maximum sentences are prescribed by Congress and are provided for informational purposes only, as the sentence will be determined by the judge. ULBRICHT is scheduled to be sentenced on May 15, 2015." So, we have... 1. distributing narcotics 2. distributing narcotics via the internet 3. count of conspiring to distribute narcotics 4. engaging in a continuing criminal enterprise 5. conspiring to commit computer hacking 6. conspiring to traffic in false identity documents 7. conspiring to traffic in false identity documents That's all seven and none of them are murder, conspiracy to commit murder, attempted murder, or solicitation of murder.
    - jokabrink 4y ago
      I think I can clear it up: The accusation of murder-for-hire would not hold up. The FBI would not be able to prove the required elements for the deed, because in order to prove it, the FBI would need to actually drive or mail something with the intent of murder [1]. In the released indictment [2] (Apparently there seems to be a superseding indictment), DPR was charged on four counts. Count one is "Narcotics Trafficking Conspiracy", none of the counts are "Murder-For-Hire". But, there are three overt (motivating) acts for the "Narcotics Trafficking Conspiracy": a) Provide a platform for selling drugs b) Solicit a murder-for-hire c) Logging in as admin on Silk Road So, while the charge "Murder-For-Hire" probably seems hard to prove (as stated above), using the intent of it to justify the count "Narcotics Trafficking Conspiracy" worked here. In a sense, I believe, DPR can not be labeled officially with "murder-for-hire", but in order to protect his "Continuing Criminal Enterprise" and as such commit "Narcotics Trafficking Conspiracy" it appears that he would have committed a "murder-for-hire" crime. Sources: [1] https://www.springsteadbartish.com/federal-criminal-defense-attorneys/federal-murder-for-hire-charges/ https://www.springsteadbartish.com/federal-criminal-defense-... [2] https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/usao-sdny/legacy/2015/03/25/US%20v.%20Ross%20Ulbricht%20Indictment.pdf https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/usao-sdny/legacy...