4 ms·

>they certainly did charge it Yes they did charge them, and then dropped them. That's what happened. Charges and convictions are not the same concept, and it's

>they certainly did charge it Yes they did charge them, and then dropped them. That's what happened. Charges and convictions are not the same concept, and it's quite amusing you have the galls to say anyone else is "wrong".

tptacek 4y ago
Yeah, you're wrong. I think what's happening here is what Kasey said: you're working exclusively from stuff like this Reason article, which is plainly wrong, and I'm working from the PACER docket of the case, which, uh, isn't. He was convicted of the charge that included the murder-for-hire scheme as its predicate. I don't know if there was some other more overt "murder" charge that he had that was later dropped (I only see the original and the superseding indictment). But if that happened, the only material implication of it is that they changed the structure of how they charged the murder-for-hire scheme. They did not give up on that charge; in a significant sense, they bet (and won) their case on it --- as the sentencing memoranda point out as well. This thread is an interesting example of how powerful the Internet folklore about Ulbricht is. Like, it stands up against the primary source documents of a conviction and sentencing! The sentencing documents must be what's wrong, not the Reason article! It's pretty fascinating, just sociologically.
- ssnistfajen 4y ago
- pxmpxm 4y ago
  >This thread is an interesting example of how powerful the Internet folklore about Ulbricht is. I imagine this is just self defense mechanism at work - if you concede to the reality that a libertarian drug utopia took around 3 years to devolve into cliche South American narco violence, you'll end up with that oh-so-uncomfortable step of having to revisit your worldviews.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    Wasn't it the FBI/DEA that offered the narco-violence? Kind of throws a wrench into your libertarian utopia claims, when the murder-for-hire is a result of state intervention.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      The "intervention" here is setting up a murder-for-hire sting?
      - notch656a 4y ago
        I'm referring to both the offering of murder for-hire by federal undercover/informants, as well as the government creating the concocted problem of the release of names for which they offer a violent solution. I don't think even in the indictment is there any murder-for-hire not offered by federal agents or informants.
        pxmpxm 4y ago
        That's the irony of it all - when faced with a real world issue of extortion and theft, given the opportunity the libertarian drug utopia solution matches the one of a Central American cartel. All those libertarian manifestos that Ulbricht dabbled in are just a marketing veneer of the stereotypical criminal organization.
        notch656a 4y ago
        So far you've proven that FBI and DEA offers of murder for hire do not fit in line with 'Libertarian' utopia. I don't think anyone is contesting that. Ulbricht wasn't living in a utopia, nor are many people going to argue his acts perfectly reflect some vague notion of any utopia.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

tptacek 4y ago

Yeah, you're wrong. I think what's happening here is what Kasey said: you're working exclusively from stuff like this Reason article, which is plainly wrong, and I'm working from the PACER docket of the case, which, uh, isn't. He was convicted of the charge that included the murder-for-hire scheme as its predicate. I don't know if there was some other more overt "murder" charge that he had that was later dropped (I only see the original and the superseding indictment). But if that happened, the only material implication of it is that they changed the structure of how they charged the murder-for-hire scheme. They did not give up on that charge; in a significant sense, they bet (and won) their case on it --- as the sentencing memoranda point out as well. This thread is an interesting example of how powerful the Internet folklore about Ulbricht is. Like, it stands up against the primary source documents of a conviction and sentencing! The sentencing documents must be what's wrong, not the Reason article! It's pretty fascinating, just sociologically.

ssnistfajen 4y ago
pxmpxm 4y ago
>This thread is an interesting example of how powerful the Internet folklore about Ulbricht is. I imagine this is just self defense mechanism at work - if you concede to the reality that a libertarian drug utopia took around 3 years to devolve into cliche South American narco violence, you'll end up with that oh-so-uncomfortable step of having to revisit your worldviews.
- notch656a 4y ago
  Wasn't it the FBI/DEA that offered the narco-violence? Kind of throws a wrench into your libertarian utopia claims, when the murder-for-hire is a result of state intervention.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    The "intervention" here is setting up a murder-for-hire sting?
    - notch656a 4y ago
      I'm referring to both the offering of murder for-hire by federal undercover/informants, as well as the government creating the concocted problem of the release of names for which they offer a violent solution. I don't think even in the indictment is there any murder-for-hire not offered by federal agents or informants.
      - pxmpxm 4y ago
        That's the irony of it all - when faced with a real world issue of extortion and theft, given the opportunity the libertarian drug utopia solution matches the one of a Central American cartel. All those libertarian manifestos that Ulbricht dabbled in are just a marketing veneer of the stereotypical criminal organization.
        notch656a 4y ago
        So far you've proven that FBI and DEA offers of murder for hire do not fit in line with 'Libertarian' utopia. I don't think anyone is contesting that. Ulbricht wasn't living in a utopia, nor are many people going to argue his acts perfectly reflect some vague notion of any utopia.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]