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> Are you suggesting that children can't learn these skills from adults It is well established that normal development REQUIRES contact with other children. An

by ch4s3 4y ago

> Are you suggesting that children can't learn these skills from adults It is well established that normal development REQUIRES contact with other children. Any specialist in early childhood development or education will tell you this. I'm in no way an expert here, but I've never once seen an expert claim that adult contact substitutes for peer contact in developing these skills.

zaphar 4y ago
Anecdotal evidence only but I and my two brothers were all homeschooled and learned these skills from our parents. There is a great deal opinion among child development experts that is not necessarily backed up by evidence. I would need to see some peer reviewed studies before I would be willing to believe these assertions. I suspect that the truth is that children need play and interaction to build social skills but that whether this involves other children in any specific quantity is irrelevant. The challenge in the pandemic of course is that the parents did not really have capacity to engage in those activities due to their own jobs and Video Conferencing is a very poor substitute. But suggesting that it has to be other children is probably incorrect. It's just a hypothesis on my part though.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  > I and my two brothers I think you're probably underestimating how much you learned this from each other. > but that whether this involves other children in any specific quantity is irrelevant. Again, this very much runs contrary to the general consensus about childhood development. If you disagree, then you need to bring some facts and research to the argument.
  - zaphar 4y ago
    I have only anecdotal evidence so this is a fair point. However I'll point out that I have not seen the experts provide facts or research either so it appears that they have the same obligation. In fact a cursory survey of the research I can publicly get access to indicates that parent-child, or teacher-child interactions are considered very essential for moral and social development and there is very little mention that I can find of inter-child interactions as a critical part. Most of the research that I can find highlights the importance of adult-child interactions. If you can point me to some studies that counteract that I'm interested.
    - zaphar 4y ago
      I suppose I should provide some links to what I was able to find: Contra studies on the importance of inter-child interactions: * https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4684-2187-3_12 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4684-2187-3_... * https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Child-care-and-children's-peer-interaction-at-24-36-Rubin-Chen/a02ac33203bd1ebc53541f8bbf820dfcd88be518 https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Child-care-and-childre... Study indicating that most of the assessment instruments supporting inter-child interactions and their importance is flawed: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/001440298305000310 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/001440298305000310
naasking 4y ago
> It is well established that normal development REQUIRES contact with other children. Any specialist in early childhood development or education will tell you this. I admit I smell a little bullshit on this as there are a number of red flags here. What constitutes "normal" is a subjective judgment relative to a culture. More culture-neutral professions use metrics like "health" in medicine, which are far less loaded, ie. if a particular environment leads to self-destructive behaviours, that's an "unhealthy" environment; but there is notion of a "normal" environment or a "normal" lifestyle. Since you seem fairly adamant that this sort of socializing is crucial, you will have to clarify if you meant "healthy development" rather than "normal development", because the former may be of interest but the latter is of no particular interest. Furthermore, specialists in early childhood development and education would of course be chock full of good advice, but that advice is based on evidence that was also almost certainly studied within a specific cultural context. I'm not at all convinced that such advice constitutes general principles on how any healthy children must be raised. If you have citations I'd certainly like to read them.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  Splitting hairs on "normal" isn't the argument you think it is. There are normal developmental milestones in childhood[1], it's a term of art. For 5year olds it includes things like "Speaks in sentences of 5 or more words, and with all parts of speech", or "shows less aggression". Again, this isn't controversial stuff, ask any pediatrician, or early childhood education specialist. Hell talk to a speech pathologist. > a specific cultural context This has very little bearing on things like brain development, or language acquisition. Childhood play is evolved behavior. If you insist that I have to provide citations to convince you of the consensus here are a few. Vocabulary[2]. An article specifically about the effects of school closures[3]. I could keep going but I almost can't believe someone here is arguing that peer interaction isn't vitally important for childhood development. Do you actually believe that? [1]https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002456.htm https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002456.htm [2]https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13670050.2020.1722058 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13670050.2020.17... [3] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047272721002103 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004727272...

by ch4s3 4y ago

zaphar 4y ago

Anecdotal evidence only but I and my two brothers were all homeschooled and learned these skills from our parents. There is a great deal opinion among child development experts that is not necessarily backed up by evidence. I would need to see some peer reviewed studies before I would be willing to believe these assertions. I suspect that the truth is that children need play and interaction to build social skills but that whether this involves other children in any specific quantity is irrelevant. The challenge in the pandemic of course is that the parents did not really have capacity to engage in those activities due to their own jobs and Video Conferencing is a very poor substitute. But suggesting that it has to be other children is probably incorrect. It's just a hypothesis on my part though.

ch4s3 4y ago
> I and my two brothers I think you're probably underestimating how much you learned this from each other. > but that whether this involves other children in any specific quantity is irrelevant. Again, this very much runs contrary to the general consensus about childhood development. If you disagree, then you need to bring some facts and research to the argument.
- zaphar 4y ago
  I have only anecdotal evidence so this is a fair point. However I'll point out that I have not seen the experts provide facts or research either so it appears that they have the same obligation. In fact a cursory survey of the research I can publicly get access to indicates that parent-child, or teacher-child interactions are considered very essential for moral and social development and there is very little mention that I can find of inter-child interactions as a critical part. Most of the research that I can find highlights the importance of adult-child interactions. If you can point me to some studies that counteract that I'm interested.
  - zaphar 4y ago
    I suppose I should provide some links to what I was able to find: Contra studies on the importance of inter-child interactions: * https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4684-2187-3_12 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4684-2187-3_... * https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Child-care-and-children's-peer-interaction-at-24-36-Rubin-Chen/a02ac33203bd1ebc53541f8bbf820dfcd88be518 https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Child-care-and-childre... Study indicating that most of the assessment instruments supporting inter-child interactions and their importance is flawed: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/001440298305000310 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/001440298305000310

naasking 4y ago

> It is well established that normal development REQUIRES contact with other children. Any specialist in early childhood development or education will tell you this. I admit I smell a little bullshit on this as there are a number of red flags here. What constitutes "normal" is a subjective judgment relative to a culture. More culture-neutral professions use metrics like "health" in medicine, which are far less loaded, ie. if a particular environment leads to self-destructive behaviours, that's an "unhealthy" environment; but there is notion of a "normal" environment or a "normal" lifestyle. Since you seem fairly adamant that this sort of socializing is crucial, you will have to clarify if you meant "healthy development" rather than "normal development", because the former may be of interest but the latter is of no particular interest. Furthermore, specialists in early childhood development and education would of course be chock full of good advice, but that advice is based on evidence that was also almost certainly studied within a specific cultural context. I'm not at all convinced that such advice constitutes general principles on how any healthy children must be raised. If you have citations I'd certainly like to read them.

ch4s3 4y ago
Splitting hairs on "normal" isn't the argument you think it is. There are normal developmental milestones in childhood[1], it's a term of art. For 5year olds it includes things like "Speaks in sentences of 5 or more words, and with all parts of speech", or "shows less aggression". Again, this isn't controversial stuff, ask any pediatrician, or early childhood education specialist. Hell talk to a speech pathologist. > a specific cultural context This has very little bearing on things like brain development, or language acquisition. Childhood play is evolved behavior. If you insist that I have to provide citations to convince you of the consensus here are a few. Vocabulary[2]. An article specifically about the effects of school closures[3]. I could keep going but I almost can't believe someone here is arguing that peer interaction isn't vitally important for childhood development. Do you actually believe that? [1]https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002456.htm https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002456.htm [2]https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13670050.2020.1722058 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13670050.2020.17... [3] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047272721002103 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004727272...