4 ms·

> free as in speech, not beer I can never remember which way around this is. I think the "beer" is supposed to be free in the monetary sense and "speech" is su

> free as in speech, not beer I can never remember which way around this is. I think the "beer" is supposed to be free in the monetary sense and "speech" is supposed to be free in the rights/liberty sense, but the analogy doesn't actually convey this: - Speech is normally both monetarily free and (in certain places) a right - Beer is normally neither monetarily free or a right. But may make you "feel" free, which is another sense entirely. Is this a cultural reference I'm missing?

dolni 4y ago
The first amendment to the US Constitution provides very strong protection for the right to free speech. Presumably that is the origin of "free as in speech".
- nicoburns 4y ago
  Right, but what about "free as in beer"?
  - iex_xei 4y ago
    If I buy you a beer, that's free beer for you.
    - klyrs 4y ago
      Which, unless you're my friend, prompts the questions "what else is in this beer" and "what's in it for you." I believe that to be a deliberate choice in the "free as in beer" analogy.
  - msbarnett 4y ago
    "Free-as-in-speech, not free-as-in-beer" is just expecting you the hearer to understand that while event advertisements might prominently feature the words "free beer" as an exciting statement that beer is being given away for zero cost to drive interest, zero cost is not the sense in which "free" is being used in "free software"
- kragen 4y ago
  No, the idea of freedom of speech predates the US Constitution, by decades, centuries, or millennia, depending on your definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#Origins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#Origins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_thought#/media/File:Freedom_of_Thought_Ben_Franklin.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_thought#/media/File... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_thought#History_of_development_and_suppression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_thought#History_of_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areopagitica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areopagitica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Anne#Lapse_of_the_Licensing_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Anne#Lapse_of_the_L... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Peter_Zenger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Peter_Zenger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Freedom_of_the_Press_Act#Freedom_of_the_Press_Act_of_1766_and_the_Age_of_Liberty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Freedom_of_the_Press_A...
  - dolni 4y ago
    Do you think that the free software movement would have adopted "free as in speech" if the US was hostile to free speech?
    - kragen 4y ago
      Certainly, but it would have started somewhere that wasn't hostile to free speech. The Netherlands 20 years from now, maybe, or Korea when the computer is invented 150 years in the future in the early stages of the Industrial Revolution.
chrisoverzero 4y ago
It’s not as complex as you’re choosing to make it. When someone tells you, “There’s free beer at Oktoberfest,” is your first thought that the beer has no monetary cost, or that the beer is unencumbered by particular legal restrictions? Now someone tells you, “There’s free speech at Oktoberfest.” Is your first thought that there’s no monetary cost to expression, or that the expression is unencumbered by particular legal restrictions? (Happily, Oktoberfest has both.) Think of them as the _slightly_ longer "Free as in 'free beer' " and "Free as in 'free speech' ". When beer is described as “free,” it’s understood to be gratis. When speech is described as free, it’s understood to be libre. These are used as examples for more ambiguous situations, since software can be one, the other, both, or neither.
- ptspts 4y ago
  How do I get free beer at Oktoberfest?
  - apetresc 4y ago
    You don't, but the point is that if there was "free beer" at Oktoberfest the meaning would be unambiguous.
- andsoitis 4y ago
  what is free software?
- mistrial9 4y ago
  pssst - there are two different words in German for these concepts
eddd-ddde 4y ago
Free as in beer, as when one refers to 'free beer' it's one that you don't pay for. When one says 'free speech' it's one that allows you to do what you want. Former is gratis, latter is libre.
rgoulter 4y ago
> Beer is normally neither monetarily free TBH the main place I've seen the phrase "free beer" is a Simpson's joke: people stand in front of a sign saying "free beer", but after Homer drinks many cups, the sign is revealed in full to say "alcohol-free beer, $5/cup". It's understood that beer normally costs money, so the setup of the joke is that "free beer" is understood without explanation as "beer without costing money".
- shadowofneptune 4y ago
  Beer was once given away at taverns so people would stick around for the food, which had a price adjusted to make up for the beer. Freeware uses this model.
  - jcpst 4y ago
    This also works in the inverse. The kimmelweck sandwich has its orgins in the pubs of western New York. Some gave the sandwich for free, and it was so salty that incentive was created for adding some pints to the tab.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dragonwriter 4y ago
The culture reference is to commercial goods (like beer) being given away at zero cost as a promotion. (“Beer” is probably not the best example but is conveniently terse; for Boomers, “toasters”—in reference to bank promotions—might be more culturally relevant, for younger generations “-to-play” in reference to F2P games might be, but neither rolls off the tongue as well.)
coldtea 4y ago
Probably you're overthinking it... "free as in speech, not beer": "free speech", the right to say what you want without legal restrictions from the state "free beer", beer you don't need to pay for Nothing to do with beer making you "feel free" (?) or whatever Then again, free speech is not about being able to modify speech, release your own version of another's speech, and so on (e.g. the US has "free speech" but MLK's dream speech is still copyrighted). Perhaps a better slogan would be: "Free as in free sex, not beer" And if the slogan wasn't meant for corporations too, and wasn't coined in the puritan 80s/90s, it might have been...
- forgotloginonp4 4y ago
  Maybe something more comprehendable would be “free as in Postfix, not Gmail” in that anyone can freely implement an MTA or use existing FOSS, which is different from using for free Gmail, Facebook, first 3 months of AOL, first 10 albums from Columbia House, … https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/28036/its-steal-how-columbia-house-made-money-giving-away-music https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/28036/its-steal-how-colu...

dolni 4y ago

The first amendment to the US Constitution provides very strong protection for the right to free speech. Presumably that is the origin of "free as in speech".

nicoburns 4y ago
Right, but what about "free as in beer"?
- iex_xei 4y ago
  If I buy you a beer, that's free beer for you.
  - klyrs 4y ago
    Which, unless you're my friend, prompts the questions "what else is in this beer" and "what's in it for you." I believe that to be a deliberate choice in the "free as in beer" analogy.
- msbarnett 4y ago
  "Free-as-in-speech, not free-as-in-beer" is just expecting you the hearer to understand that while event advertisements might prominently feature the words "free beer" as an exciting statement that beer is being given away for zero cost to drive interest, zero cost is not the sense in which "free" is being used in "free software"
kragen 4y ago
No, the idea of freedom of speech predates the US Constitution, by decades, centuries, or millennia, depending on your definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#Origins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#Origins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_thought#/media/File:Freedom_of_Thought_Ben_Franklin.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_thought#/media/File... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_thought#History_of_development_and_suppression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_thought#History_of_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areopagitica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areopagitica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Anne#Lapse_of_the_Licensing_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Anne#Lapse_of_the_L... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Peter_Zenger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Peter_Zenger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Freedom_of_the_Press_Act#Freedom_of_the_Press_Act_of_1766_and_the_Age_of_Liberty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Freedom_of_the_Press_A...
- dolni 4y ago
  Do you think that the free software movement would have adopted "free as in speech" if the US was hostile to free speech?
  - kragen 4y ago
    Certainly, but it would have started somewhere that wasn't hostile to free speech. The Netherlands 20 years from now, maybe, or Korea when the computer is invented 150 years in the future in the early stages of the Industrial Revolution.

chrisoverzero 4y ago

It’s not as complex as you’re choosing to make it. When someone tells you, “There’s free beer at Oktoberfest,” is your first thought that the beer has no monetary cost, or that the beer is unencumbered by particular legal restrictions? Now someone tells you, “There’s free speech at Oktoberfest.” Is your first thought that there’s no monetary cost to expression, or that the expression is unencumbered by particular legal restrictions? (Happily, Oktoberfest has both.) Think of them as the _slightly_ longer "Free as in 'free beer' " and "Free as in 'free speech' ". When beer is described as “free,” it’s understood to be gratis. When speech is described as free, it’s understood to be libre. These are used as examples for more ambiguous situations, since software can be one, the other, both, or neither.

ptspts 4y ago
How do I get free beer at Oktoberfest?
- apetresc 4y ago
  You don't, but the point is that if there was "free beer" at Oktoberfest the meaning would be unambiguous.
andsoitis 4y ago
what is free software?
mistrial9 4y ago
pssst - there are two different words in German for these concepts

eddd-ddde 4y ago

Free as in beer, as when one refers to 'free beer' it's one that you don't pay for. When one says 'free speech' it's one that allows you to do what you want. Former is gratis, latter is libre.

rgoulter 4y ago

> Beer is normally neither monetarily free TBH the main place I've seen the phrase "free beer" is a Simpson's joke: people stand in front of a sign saying "free beer", but after Homer drinks many cups, the sign is revealed in full to say "alcohol-free beer, $5/cup". It's understood that beer normally costs money, so the setup of the joke is that "free beer" is understood without explanation as "beer without costing money".

shadowofneptune 4y ago
Beer was once given away at taverns so people would stick around for the food, which had a price adjusted to make up for the beer. Freeware uses this model.
- jcpst 4y ago
  This also works in the inverse. The kimmelweck sandwich has its orgins in the pubs of western New York. Some gave the sandwich for free, and it was so salty that incentive was created for adding some pints to the tab.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

dragonwriter 4y ago

The culture reference is to commercial goods (like beer) being given away at zero cost as a promotion. (“Beer” is probably not the best example but is conveniently terse; for Boomers, “toasters”—in reference to bank promotions—might be more culturally relevant, for younger generations “-to-play” in reference to F2P games might be, but neither rolls off the tongue as well.)

coldtea 4y ago

Probably you're overthinking it... "free as in speech, not beer": "free speech", the right to say what you want without legal restrictions from the state "free beer", beer you don't need to pay for Nothing to do with beer making you "feel free" (?) or whatever Then again, free speech is not about being able to modify speech, release your own version of another's speech, and so on (e.g. the US has "free speech" but MLK's dream speech is still copyrighted). Perhaps a better slogan would be: "Free as in free sex, not beer" And if the slogan wasn't meant for corporations too, and wasn't coined in the puritan 80s/90s, it might have been...

forgotloginonp4 4y ago
Maybe something more comprehendable would be “free as in Postfix, not Gmail” in that anyone can freely implement an MTA or use existing FOSS, which is different from using for free Gmail, Facebook, first 3 months of AOL, first 10 albums from Columbia House, … https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/28036/its-steal-how-columbia-house-made-money-giving-away-music https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/28036/its-steal-how-colu...