5 ms·

He really did try to have someone killed. Ulbricht is exactly the kind of person who should be in prison.

by mullen 4y ago

ALittleLight 4y ago
If my memory serves the government never brought that as a charge at trial. In part, I think, because they wanted to not discuss that the agent Ross tried to buy the hit(s) from wound up stealing money from the Silk Road.
- tptacek 4y ago
  Your memory does not serve you right, and the murder-for-hire scheme was in fact part of the charges he was tried for.
  - ALittleLight 4y ago
    Per Wikipedia - "Ulbricht was not charged in his trial in New York federal court with any murder for hire". Wikipedia does say that there was evidence that was shown at trial about the murder for hire thing and that it did weigh against him in sentencing - which seems odd to me that crimes you haven't been charged with or convicted of could impact your sentence. Wikipedia also says "Ulbricht was separately indicted in federal court in Maryland on a single murder-for-hire charge, alleging that he contracted to kill one of his employees (a former Silk Road moderator). Prosecutors moved to drop this indictment after his New York conviction and sentence became final" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#Arrest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#Arrest
    - tptacek 4y ago
      That's right, he was charged with a "Narcotics Trafficking Conspiracy", with 4 overt acts, a, b, c, and d, and b and c were the murder-for-hire schemes. The overt acts of a conspiracy charge are the guts of the charge itself, and the prosecution has to prove them at trial. Try this: Google [federal narcotics conspiracy "murder for hire"] (it's not a rare combination of factors!), pull up some DOJ press releases (I found several on the first search results page), and then look them up in PACER. I'm looking at Roger Key (a.k.a. "Luchie")'s 2015 indictment right now, and it's similar. This isn't some weird finagling the prosecutors did with Ulbricht; it's just how you get charged for this kind of conduct. This notion that prosecutors somehow gave up on the murder-for-hire charge is Internet folklore. It's just not real. What complicated the charge isn't some bungling spy story about the agents involved, but the fact that the murder was a set-up and he didn't actually have anyone killed. But the prosecution established that Ulbricht tried to, and that's also the simplest and most reasonable conclusion to reach given the facts. I've never read an exculpatory explanation of Ulbricht's payment to arrange murders that made any sense at all.
      - ALittleLight 4y ago
        I'm having a hard time squaring your comment with the wikipedia article that you seem to agree with. Ulbricht wasn't convicted on murder for hire charges and the time he was charged on a murder for hire thing that charge was dropped. You seem to be saying that the reason he wasn't charged/convicted is because nobody was actually murdered. That seems hard for me to believe because the state would have known nobody was actually murdered when they were writing the indictment (which alleges the murder for hire plot) or when they were bringing the original charges. It's also true that agents involved in the plot, the agent Ulbricht thought he was buying the hit from specifically, were arrested and convicted for stealing from the silk road. I think it's way more plausible that the government decided not to go in to the extent of the corruption of their officers at trial, because it would provide a good reason to think about what other government dishonesty their might be, rather than the government deciding that they can't charge attempted murder for hire because nobody died. https://www.wired.com/2015/03/dea-agent-charged-acting-paid-mole-silk-road/ https://www.wired.com/2015/03/dea-agent-charged-acting-paid-...
        tptacek 4y ago
        51% of Wikipedians can believe whatever they'd like to, but the primary source documents are right there for you to read. Nobody was actually murdered because the murder-for-hire scheme was an FBI sting.
        ALittleLight 4y ago
        But the primary source documents all agree that Ulbricht wasn't charged or convicted with murder-for-hire and that the agent Ulbricht contracted with was arrested and convicted for corruption-related crimes. It's also obviously not true that somebody has to be dead for the state to charge murder-for-hire related crimes. If that were the case, the state wouldn't have agents pretending to be hitmen to catch people trying to hire hitmen.
        tptacek 4y ago
        I really don't know how to state this any more plainly: he was charged, in the same manner as other drug kingpins have been charged, with a narcotics conspiracy whose overt acts --- in the indictment, as charged behavior, which the jury had to find true beyond a reasonable doubt --- were comprised of two different murder-for-hire schemes. He was convicted of that charge. He appealed, and his appeal didn't contest that charge or any of the findings of fact (or, for that matter, testimony leading up to that finding of fact) for that charge. The second bit, about nobody needing to be dead for him to be charged, we agree on. One reason I think people are confused about this is that there was a second prosecution, by a different team of prosecutors in a different case (out of Baltimore?) that charged the murder-for-hire scheme more directly. That may be, but he was still charged for it in the SDNY case, which earned him a life sentence. SDNY was not evasive about this! They not only indicted for the murder-for-hire scheme, won a conviction on it, and had him sentenced based in large part on it, but also crowed about it in their press release. I'm sort of baffled by the extremely common belief that the DOJ "dropped the charges" about the murder-for-hire scheme. They did more or less the opposite thing.
sillysaurusx 4y ago
Did he? I would appreciate being reminded as to the facts of that. I’ve always felt skeptical of that claim, but I haven’t spent the time to research it. It just felt like that would be the exact thing an organization would pin on him if they wanted to destroy his life. It’s entirely possible he did, but I remind you that in an era where Epstein probably didn’t kill himself, it’s really hard to just take things at face value. EDIT: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32057717 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32057717 is a pretty good overview.
- tveita 4y ago
  The chat logs they captured from his servers[1] are straight forward and damning, and corroborated by the diary they retrieved from his laptop. There is no serious doubt that he solicited multiple hits, both from an undercover FBI agent and from other people, possibly scammers. It is up to you what moral weights you want to assign to US drug policies, that the FBI agent was corrupt [2], or that apparently no one actually got killed, but it's silly that people are still disputing the plain fact that Ross Ulbricht tried to have people murdered. [1] https://www.wired.com/2015/02/read-transcript-silk-roads-boss-ordering-5-assassinations/ https://www.wired.com/2015/02/read-transcript-silk-roads-bos... > Dread Pirate Roberts 3/29/2013 22:55: Hi again R&W, I hate to come to you with a problem when we are just starting to get to know one another, but Blake (FriendlyChemist) is causing me problems. Are you still looking for him or now that you've found Xin have you given up? I would like to put a bounty on his head if it's not too much trouble for you. What would be an adequate amount to motivate you to find him? Necessities like this do happen from time to time for a person in my position. I have others I can turn to, but it is always good to have options and you are close to the case right now. Hopefully this is something you are open to and can be another aspect of our business relationship. Regards, DPR > Dread Pirate Roberts 3/31/2013 8:59: Don't want to be a pain here, but the price seems high. Not long ago, I had a clean hit done for $80k. Are the prices you quoted the best you can do? I would like this done asap as he is talking about releasing the info on Monday [2] https://www.vice.com/en/article/8q845p/dea-agent-who-faked-a-murder-and-took-bitcoins-from-silk-road-explains-himself https://www.vice.com/en/article/8q845p/dea-agent-who-faked-a...
homonculus1 4y ago
I have a bridge to sell you, best view in the Bay Area.
- mullen 4y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32057717 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32057717 You might want to give me a really good price.
splintercell 4y ago
How many years do you think someone should get for a murder-for-hire scheme?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

He really did try to have someone killed. Ulbricht is exactly the kind of person who should be in prison.

by mullen 4y ago

He really did try to have someone killed. Ulbricht is exactly the kind of person who should be in prison.

If my memory serves the government never brought that as a charge at trial. In part, I think, because they wanted to not discuss that the agent Ross tried to buy the hit(s) from wound up stealing money from the Silk Road.

tptacek 4y ago
Your memory does not serve you right, and the murder-for-hire scheme was in fact part of the charges he was tried for.
- ALittleLight 4y ago
  Per Wikipedia - "Ulbricht was not charged in his trial in New York federal court with any murder for hire". Wikipedia does say that there was evidence that was shown at trial about the murder for hire thing and that it did weigh against him in sentencing - which seems odd to me that crimes you haven't been charged with or convicted of could impact your sentence. Wikipedia also says "Ulbricht was separately indicted in federal court in Maryland on a single murder-for-hire charge, alleging that he contracted to kill one of his employees (a former Silk Road moderator). Prosecutors moved to drop this indictment after his New York conviction and sentence became final" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#Arrest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Ulbricht#Arrest
  - tptacek 4y ago
    That's right, he was charged with a "Narcotics Trafficking Conspiracy", with 4 overt acts, a, b, c, and d, and b and c were the murder-for-hire schemes. The overt acts of a conspiracy charge are the guts of the charge itself, and the prosecution has to prove them at trial. Try this: Google [federal narcotics conspiracy "murder for hire"] (it's not a rare combination of factors!), pull up some DOJ press releases (I found several on the first search results page), and then look them up in PACER. I'm looking at Roger Key (a.k.a. "Luchie")'s 2015 indictment right now, and it's similar. This isn't some weird finagling the prosecutors did with Ulbricht; it's just how you get charged for this kind of conduct. This notion that prosecutors somehow gave up on the murder-for-hire charge is Internet folklore. It's just not real. What complicated the charge isn't some bungling spy story about the agents involved, but the fact that the murder was a set-up and he didn't actually have anyone killed. But the prosecution established that Ulbricht tried to, and that's also the simplest and most reasonable conclusion to reach given the facts. I've never read an exculpatory explanation of Ulbricht's payment to arrange murders that made any sense at all.
    - ALittleLight 4y ago
      I'm having a hard time squaring your comment with the wikipedia article that you seem to agree with. Ulbricht wasn't convicted on murder for hire charges and the time he was charged on a murder for hire thing that charge was dropped. You seem to be saying that the reason he wasn't charged/convicted is because nobody was actually murdered. That seems hard for me to believe because the state would have known nobody was actually murdered when they were writing the indictment (which alleges the murder for hire plot) or when they were bringing the original charges. It's also true that agents involved in the plot, the agent Ulbricht thought he was buying the hit from specifically, were arrested and convicted for stealing from the silk road. I think it's way more plausible that the government decided not to go in to the extent of the corruption of their officers at trial, because it would provide a good reason to think about what other government dishonesty their might be, rather than the government deciding that they can't charge attempted murder for hire because nobody died. https://www.wired.com/2015/03/dea-agent-charged-acting-paid-mole-silk-road/ https://www.wired.com/2015/03/dea-agent-charged-acting-paid-...
      - tptacek 4y ago
        51% of Wikipedians can believe whatever they'd like to, but the primary source documents are right there for you to read. Nobody was actually murdered because the murder-for-hire scheme was an FBI sting.
        ALittleLight 4y ago
        But the primary source documents all agree that Ulbricht wasn't charged or convicted with murder-for-hire and that the agent Ulbricht contracted with was arrested and convicted for corruption-related crimes. It's also obviously not true that somebody has to be dead for the state to charge murder-for-hire related crimes. If that were the case, the state wouldn't have agents pretending to be hitmen to catch people trying to hire hitmen.
        tptacek 4y ago
        I really don't know how to state this any more plainly: he was charged, in the same manner as other drug kingpins have been charged, with a narcotics conspiracy whose overt acts --- in the indictment, as charged behavior, which the jury had to find true beyond a reasonable doubt --- were comprised of two different murder-for-hire schemes. He was convicted of that charge. He appealed, and his appeal didn't contest that charge or any of the findings of fact (or, for that matter, testimony leading up to that finding of fact) for that charge. The second bit, about nobody needing to be dead for him to be charged, we agree on. One reason I think people are confused about this is that there was a second prosecution, by a different team of prosecutors in a different case (out of Baltimore?) that charged the murder-for-hire scheme more directly. That may be, but he was still charged for it in the SDNY case, which earned him a life sentence. SDNY was not evasive about this! They not only indicted for the murder-for-hire scheme, won a conviction on it, and had him sentenced based in large part on it, but also crowed about it in their press release. I'm sort of baffled by the extremely common belief that the DOJ "dropped the charges" about the murder-for-hire scheme. They did more or less the opposite thing.

sillysaurusx 4y ago

Did he? I would appreciate being reminded as to the facts of that. I’ve always felt skeptical of that claim, but I haven’t spent the time to research it. It just felt like that would be the exact thing an organization would pin on him if they wanted to destroy his life. It’s entirely possible he did, but I remind you that in an era where Epstein probably didn’t kill himself, it’s really hard to just take things at face value. EDIT: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32057717 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32057717 is a pretty good overview.

tveita 4y ago
The chat logs they captured from his servers[1] are straight forward and damning, and corroborated by the diary they retrieved from his laptop. There is no serious doubt that he solicited multiple hits, both from an undercover FBI agent and from other people, possibly scammers. It is up to you what moral weights you want to assign to US drug policies, that the FBI agent was corrupt [2], or that apparently no one actually got killed, but it's silly that people are still disputing the plain fact that Ross Ulbricht tried to have people murdered. [1] https://www.wired.com/2015/02/read-transcript-silk-roads-boss-ordering-5-assassinations/ https://www.wired.com/2015/02/read-transcript-silk-roads-bos... > Dread Pirate Roberts 3/29/2013 22:55: Hi again R&W, I hate to come to you with a problem when we are just starting to get to know one another, but Blake (FriendlyChemist) is causing me problems. Are you still looking for him or now that you've found Xin have you given up? I would like to put a bounty on his head if it's not too much trouble for you. What would be an adequate amount to motivate you to find him? Necessities like this do happen from time to time for a person in my position. I have others I can turn to, but it is always good to have options and you are close to the case right now. Hopefully this is something you are open to and can be another aspect of our business relationship. Regards, DPR > Dread Pirate Roberts 3/31/2013 8:59: Don't want to be a pain here, but the price seems high. Not long ago, I had a clean hit done for $80k. Are the prices you quoted the best you can do? I would like this done asap as he is talking about releasing the info on Monday [2] https://www.vice.com/en/article/8q845p/dea-agent-who-faked-a-murder-and-took-bitcoins-from-silk-road-explains-himself https://www.vice.com/en/article/8q845p/dea-agent-who-faked-a...

homonculus1 4y ago

I have a bridge to sell you, best view in the Bay Area.

mullen 4y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32057717 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32057717 You might want to give me a really good price.

splintercell 4y ago

How many years do you think someone should get for a murder-for-hire scheme?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]