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It's a generalized problem that American corporations have worked hand-in-hand with the government to make sure that they avoid the vast preponderance of legal

It's a generalized problem that American corporations have worked hand-in-hand with the government to make sure that they avoid the vast preponderance of legal culpability for any and all malfeasance they cause. You almost have to hand it to them. Almost. As with all systemic issues we face, we can't fix it until we "fix" Citizens United, and that -- as well as any other Constitutional Amendment these days -- will be nigh impossible.

kmeisthax 4y ago
In this particular case the corporations in question - banks - would love to see the problem solved too. They don't want to make fraudulent loans in other people's names. The problem is that America's government does not provide a strong form of identity. In fact, strong identity is culturally resisted: civil libertarians[0] have been adamant that America should not have national ID cards of any kind. Great, except that this now makes fraud a lot easier. Today, if you are a bank you don't actually have any good options to verify the identity of a new customer. Names are quite common, people move all the time, phone numbers change and can get stolen, SSNs were specifically designed to be easily forgeable[1], most Americans do not have passports, not everyone has a US birth certificate, not everyone can get a driver's license, the ID-only cards you can get are intentionally designed to be a pain for the above two categories, etc. [0] This is also one of the few times where I don't have to distinguish between left- and right-wing libertarians either. [1] If you were born before 2011 you can obtain valid SSNs by incrementing or decrementing the last four digits of your own. You will get the SSN of someone else who was born in the same hospital as you. The first five digits are just a function of the state the SSN was issued in and when you were born. There is no check digit, they only started randomly issuing numbers in 2011, and even then it does not matter because compromised SSNs are never reissued unless you are an FBI informant.
- carapace 4y ago
  > America should not have national ID cards of any kind. Great, except that this now makes fraud a lot easier. No, it makes establishing trustworthy business transactions slightly harder. Only slightly, and the necessary technology has been off-the-shelf for some time now. > Today, if you are a bank you don't actually have any good options to verify the identity of a new customer. The folks at my local credit union and I know each other personally. It would take a "Mission Impossible"-style impersonation to get them to succumb to fraud ("identity theft".)
- jjav 4y ago
  > In this particular case the corporations in question - banks - would love to see the problem solved too. They don't want to make fraudulent loans in other people's names. It is true that banks very much don't want to issue loans that turn out to be fraudulent. But, they very much more strongly don't want any liability for ruining peoples credit for issuing those fraudulent loans. So they'll rather take the former than the latter. Shift the blame to the innocent person who has no way to prevent it.
- TheRealDunkirk 4y ago
  Agreed. I believe it is this issue alone -- not voting or gun ownership or anything else -- that will push the US to implementing a verified identification. Loss from consumer financial fraud. And, again, this will be the government only acting, because of the interest of big business.
cratermoon 4y ago
It's a generalized problem that American institutions of all sorts have successfully lobbied for policies that take advantage of the current neoliberal consensus of "individual responsibilities" and individual-level solutions for system problems that need systemic public policies. Examples climate change: individuals should choose electric cars, run their thermostats higher in the summer, lower in the winter, and lower their carbon footprint. Ignore industries that dominate the generation of greenhouse gases obesity: no, it's not the product of individual fallibility. That's the dominant narrative, but the problem is the food system retirement savings: join your companies 401k and max out your contribution, get an IRA, save more. Don't blame companies that stopped funding pensions, but let the financial industry capture huge profits from managing funds. Oh and don't have any affordable housing for retirees. plastic waste and garbage: recycle! return your bottles for deposit! But the “Keep America Beautiful” campaign, was actually the product of beverage and packaging corporations such as the American Can Co. and the Owens-Illinois Glass Co., later joined by corporations such as Coca-Cola and Dixie Cup.

kmeisthax 4y ago

In this particular case the corporations in question - banks - would love to see the problem solved too. They don't want to make fraudulent loans in other people's names. The problem is that America's government does not provide a strong form of identity. In fact, strong identity is culturally resisted: civil libertarians[0] have been adamant that America should not have national ID cards of any kind. Great, except that this now makes fraud a lot easier. Today, if you are a bank you don't actually have any good options to verify the identity of a new customer. Names are quite common, people move all the time, phone numbers change and can get stolen, SSNs were specifically designed to be easily forgeable[1], most Americans do not have passports, not everyone has a US birth certificate, not everyone can get a driver's license, the ID-only cards you can get are intentionally designed to be a pain for the above two categories, etc. [0] This is also one of the few times where I don't have to distinguish between left- and right-wing libertarians either. [1] If you were born before 2011 you can obtain valid SSNs by incrementing or decrementing the last four digits of your own. You will get the SSN of someone else who was born in the same hospital as you. The first five digits are just a function of the state the SSN was issued in and when you were born. There is no check digit, they only started randomly issuing numbers in 2011, and even then it does not matter because compromised SSNs are never reissued unless you are an FBI informant.

carapace 4y ago
> America should not have national ID cards of any kind. Great, except that this now makes fraud a lot easier. No, it makes establishing trustworthy business transactions slightly harder. Only slightly, and the necessary technology has been off-the-shelf for some time now. > Today, if you are a bank you don't actually have any good options to verify the identity of a new customer. The folks at my local credit union and I know each other personally. It would take a "Mission Impossible"-style impersonation to get them to succumb to fraud ("identity theft".)
jjav 4y ago
> In this particular case the corporations in question - banks - would love to see the problem solved too. They don't want to make fraudulent loans in other people's names. It is true that banks very much don't want to issue loans that turn out to be fraudulent. But, they very much more strongly don't want any liability for ruining peoples credit for issuing those fraudulent loans. So they'll rather take the former than the latter. Shift the blame to the innocent person who has no way to prevent it.
TheRealDunkirk 4y ago
Agreed. I believe it is this issue alone -- not voting or gun ownership or anything else -- that will push the US to implementing a verified identification. Loss from consumer financial fraud. And, again, this will be the government only acting, because of the interest of big business.

cratermoon 4y ago

It's a generalized problem that American institutions of all sorts have successfully lobbied for policies that take advantage of the current neoliberal consensus of "individual responsibilities" and individual-level solutions for system problems that need systemic public policies. Examples climate change: individuals should choose electric cars, run their thermostats higher in the summer, lower in the winter, and lower their carbon footprint. Ignore industries that dominate the generation of greenhouse gases obesity: no, it's not the product of individual fallibility. That's the dominant narrative, but the problem is the food system retirement savings: join your companies 401k and max out your contribution, get an IRA, save more. Don't blame companies that stopped funding pensions, but let the financial industry capture huge profits from managing funds. Oh and don't have any affordable housing for retirees. plastic waste and garbage: recycle! return your bottles for deposit! But the “Keep America Beautiful” campaign, was actually the product of beverage and packaging corporations such as the American Can Co. and the Owens-Illinois Glass Co., later joined by corporations such as Coca-Cola and Dixie Cup.