4 ms·

A desire for intellectual growth is a very good reason. If other minds that I find interesting tend to mention a particular book a lot, I want in. I want to get

by cal85 4y ago

A desire for intellectual growth is a very good reason. If other minds that I find interesting tend to mention a particular book a lot, I want in. I want to get it, to understand it, to have what they're having. This drive has led me to learn and enjoy many things that I would have missed out on if I hadn't persevered past the "I don't get this" phase (in literature, programming, science, anything). The notion that people should only read things they already 'enjoy' is modern anti-intellectual bullshit. Some things take effort before the reward. It's perfectly sensible for someone with a thirst for growth to ask for tips on how to get into something that smart people, in their estimation, seem to enjoy. And when they do ask for help, they should be encouraged.

_aavaa_ 4y ago
>> so I would like to knock this classic out, but I am not sure how. First of all, this sounds like wanting to "having had read" a book to check a box rather than the desire for the intellectual growth that comes from reading it. > If other minds that I find interesting tend to mention a particular book a lot, I want in. I want to get it, to understand it, to have what they're having. That isn't a book chosen for intellectual growth, that's a book chosen out of mimetic desire. > The notion that people should only read things they already 'enjoy' is modern anti-intellectual bullshit. Perhaps enjoy was not the best word for me to use. My point being, there are more classic books and books which other intellectuals reccomend than there is time in the world to read. Rather than keep banging ones head against the wall because this particular book does work out, they may be better served by trying a different book (one of the other 1,000s).
- haswell 4y ago
  > My point being, there are more classic books and books which other intellectuals reccomend than there is time in the world to read. This point was not at all clear from your parent comment, which was easy to interpret as “if it’s hard, why try?”. You’ve clarified that this was not your point, but I understand why someone would interpret the original comment as anti-intellectual.
  - _aavaa_ 4y ago
    That almost is what my original comment was, and I still stand by the original one. But rather than “if it’s hard, why try?”, what I meant by it is "you've tried several times and still don't like it. Why is it that you're trying in the first place". It is not anti-intellectual to say that one should stop reading a book they don't enjoy and don't have a good reason to get through. There are many other books which will qualify as an intellectual pursuit that the person could enjoy.
    - haswell 4y ago
      But in order for this to be acceptable advice (IMO), it has to include the 2nd part, which is that not trying doesn't mean you abandon the pursuit of what you originally had in mind when you picked up the book, assuming you still have the same underlying goal. Pulling this momentarily into the technical domain, there are hundreds of ways to learn about computing, and the underlying concepts that make it all work. If one day, I decide I want to learn how operating systems work, there are a myriad of resources I can choose from. I might choose one, and discover that something about it just doesn't help me learn the subject matter. Perhaps it's too dense, or assumes knowledge that I don't yet have, or is just not written very well. My end goal is still to learn about operating systems. I can abandon this goal entirely (which is how one might read that original comment, and I think it's fair to ask whether it's imperative that I learn about operating systems), or I can find other resources that help me achieve the same goal, possibly through a very different learning process. All I'm saying is: "If it's hard, why try?" Is very different from: "If it's hard, consider looking for another starting point" To the point that the 2nd sentence takes on an entirely different meaning and leads to a very different conclusion than the 1st. > It is not anti-intellectual to say that one should stop reading a book they don't enjoy and don't have a good reason to get through I agree with this statement, but this is not what the original comment stated. The original comment made no distinction about "a good reason to get through" the material. I'd go a step further and say that if you don't have a good reason to get through the material, and you don't enjoy it, it's actively harmful to spend the time. At that point, you might as well fire up your favorite video game or Netflix series, which will at least give you some momentary enjoyment. But even then, some uncertainty emerges when deciding which things are important to get through. It is often not easy to make that judgement without understanding the material, which you cannot do without getting through it. And so we look to others who we respect, who found profound meaning, and trust that there's something there. I think the most important thing is forming some idea of what you hope to achieve (a new understanding of things, or some insight into a particular phenomena, or personal growth, etc), and then making decisions about which steps you take next based on whether or not you're achieving that goal. One of those steps might be choosing to stop struggling through a particular book. Or one of those steps might be deciding the original goal isn't worth the effort. But I do think that choosing purely based on enjoyment or difficulty will lead to never growing. Growth usually comes via the hardest stuff, and if growth is important to you, a different decision making framework is required.
yazantapuz 4y ago
If Shakespeare interests you, that’s fine. If you find him tedious, leave him. Shakespeare hasn’t yet written for you. The day will come when Shakespeare will be right for you and you will be worthy of Shakespeare, but in the meantime there’s no need to hurry things. -- Jorge Luis Borges.

by cal85 4y ago

_aavaa_ 4y ago

>> so I would like to knock this classic out, but I am not sure how. First of all, this sounds like wanting to "having had read" a book to check a box rather than the desire for the intellectual growth that comes from reading it. > If other minds that I find interesting tend to mention a particular book a lot, I want in. I want to get it, to understand it, to have what they're having. That isn't a book chosen for intellectual growth, that's a book chosen out of mimetic desire. > The notion that people should only read things they already 'enjoy' is modern anti-intellectual bullshit. Perhaps enjoy was not the best word for me to use. My point being, there are more classic books and books which other intellectuals reccomend than there is time in the world to read. Rather than keep banging ones head against the wall because this particular book does work out, they may be better served by trying a different book (one of the other 1,000s).

haswell 4y ago
> My point being, there are more classic books and books which other intellectuals reccomend than there is time in the world to read. This point was not at all clear from your parent comment, which was easy to interpret as “if it’s hard, why try?”. You’ve clarified that this was not your point, but I understand why someone would interpret the original comment as anti-intellectual.
- _aavaa_ 4y ago
  That almost is what my original comment was, and I still stand by the original one. But rather than “if it’s hard, why try?”, what I meant by it is "you've tried several times and still don't like it. Why is it that you're trying in the first place". It is not anti-intellectual to say that one should stop reading a book they don't enjoy and don't have a good reason to get through. There are many other books which will qualify as an intellectual pursuit that the person could enjoy.
  - haswell 4y ago
    But in order for this to be acceptable advice (IMO), it has to include the 2nd part, which is that not trying doesn't mean you abandon the pursuit of what you originally had in mind when you picked up the book, assuming you still have the same underlying goal. Pulling this momentarily into the technical domain, there are hundreds of ways to learn about computing, and the underlying concepts that make it all work. If one day, I decide I want to learn how operating systems work, there are a myriad of resources I can choose from. I might choose one, and discover that something about it just doesn't help me learn the subject matter. Perhaps it's too dense, or assumes knowledge that I don't yet have, or is just not written very well. My end goal is still to learn about operating systems. I can abandon this goal entirely (which is how one might read that original comment, and I think it's fair to ask whether it's imperative that I learn about operating systems), or I can find other resources that help me achieve the same goal, possibly through a very different learning process. All I'm saying is: "If it's hard, why try?" Is very different from: "If it's hard, consider looking for another starting point" To the point that the 2nd sentence takes on an entirely different meaning and leads to a very different conclusion than the 1st. > It is not anti-intellectual to say that one should stop reading a book they don't enjoy and don't have a good reason to get through I agree with this statement, but this is not what the original comment stated. The original comment made no distinction about "a good reason to get through" the material. I'd go a step further and say that if you don't have a good reason to get through the material, and you don't enjoy it, it's actively harmful to spend the time. At that point, you might as well fire up your favorite video game or Netflix series, which will at least give you some momentary enjoyment. But even then, some uncertainty emerges when deciding which things are important to get through. It is often not easy to make that judgement without understanding the material, which you cannot do without getting through it. And so we look to others who we respect, who found profound meaning, and trust that there's something there. I think the most important thing is forming some idea of what you hope to achieve (a new understanding of things, or some insight into a particular phenomena, or personal growth, etc), and then making decisions about which steps you take next based on whether or not you're achieving that goal. One of those steps might be choosing to stop struggling through a particular book. Or one of those steps might be deciding the original goal isn't worth the effort. But I do think that choosing purely based on enjoyment or difficulty will lead to never growing. Growth usually comes via the hardest stuff, and if growth is important to you, a different decision making framework is required.

yazantapuz 4y ago

If Shakespeare interests you, that’s fine. If you find him tedious, leave him. Shakespeare hasn’t yet written for you. The day will come when Shakespeare will be right for you and you will be worthy of Shakespeare, but in the meantime there’s no need to hurry things. -- Jorge Luis Borges.