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You know which group didn’t suffer learning loss? Homeschooled children, which indicates to me the failure is ultimately with the parents. Parents (even if they

You know which group didn’t suffer learning loss? Homeschooled children, which indicates to me the failure is ultimately with the parents. Parents (even if they use schools) are the only party responsible for their kids. Even if you use public schools or public food or public medicine. It’s the parents responsibility to raise their children and teach them. Society seriously failed the children with Covid. But not all of society. I’m way more aware of the parents who take their responsibility seriously. My wife and I moved, reconfigured our whole house, changed jobs, etc to ensure our kids got what they needed. On the one hand it was a good wake up call to a lot of parents (myself included), when I saw them mask my kids under 5 I Showed the school the studies (showing dramatic reduction in learning, IQ and ability). The state still required it, I went to the state, they said “that’s the requirements to protect children and staff”. When I questioned why children need protection, they deflected and said “protect families from covid” At that point I unenrolled all my kids and we have been homeschooling since. All of them are well ahead of where they would have been (using old milestones, not the updated ones). Regardless of Covid, If you can homeschool I’d highly recommend it. As a parent my family has found it way more rewarding and my children learn way more. Frankly, I’m surprised people think the idea of putting “kids the same age” together will ever result in a more “normal” or better experience for kids. Kids need to learn how to behave in society, by themselves (10-20 kids to a teacher) it’s a zoo.

yunohn 4y ago
> Homeschooled children, which indicates to me the failure is ultimately with the parents. > I’m way more aware of the parents who take their responsibility seriously It’s hilarious how you think upheaving your entire life to homeschool your children is so easy and parents have failed if they don’t do so. It’s incredibly expensive and not scalable in any shape or form. This is why actual schools exist.
lelandfe 4y ago
> failure is ultimately with the parents Do you view a lack of time to homeschool as a parental failure? I know single parents working multiple jobs to scrape by. > moved, reconfigured our whole house, changed jobs, etc to ensure our kids got what they needed How would your comment go if you’d been unable to do any of this?
- blitzar 4y ago
  Reminds me of all the middle class knowlege workers who at peak covid smugly proclaimed that everyone should just "work from home", I'm doing it and I am very important so why isnt everyone else. Turns out the supermarket shelves arent at home and someone needs to deliver the toilet paper so you can panic buy your 200th roll that week.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  - lettergram 4y ago
    > This is a natural extension of the american/conservative "all consequences are the fault of the person experiencing them" ideology. You have a very weird view of conservatives that is really nothing like reality; at least based on what I’ve seen. First point, your comment implies that your view is it’s your neighbors are responsible for your child? So what, the pedophile next door should take care of your kid? Or should you move and take that responsibility? If is your responsibility to move or take action of some kind obviously. No conservative I’ve ever met have been anti-community or pro-suffering. They have their churches, their private schools, etc. they have more community than most. But they claim it’s your responsibility, because it is. It’s a fact, you can’t ignore. You don’t want your neighbor dictating how you raise your kids. You want help sometimes, that’s good. You can collaborate with people, but shouldn’t expect someone else to take care of something for you. In way of another example, if I got a dog, I wouldn’t expect my neighbor to feed it. That said, there’s a community shelter if the dog needs it. I came from a poor household, but my parents never shirked responsibility. There were many times they failed to live up to their expectations. But that doesn’t change the fact they tried and understood no one was going to do it but them. My brother and I started working early and we had to pull some weight or we wouldn’t have clothes. It’s the way it was, I suffered far less than those who had irresponsible parents.
  - odessacubbage 4y ago
    the flipside of this is the attitude that suffering and deprivation is virtuous if it is mutual, that you have a 'responsibility' to buy in to a failing and now outright neglectful educational model out of poorly conceived notion that this is leveling the playing field. it isn't, it never has and it never will. the parents who compound the maximum advantages for their kids will win out and the ones who can't or wont will be stuck with another decade of 'no child left behind' given a new, vaguely utopian name.
mettamage 4y ago
> Frankly, I’m surprised people think the idea of putting “kids the same age” together will ever result in a more “normal” or better experience for kids. I call it age segregation.
tjr225 4y ago
Homeschooled children have always had a reputation for being quite a bit “off” socially(no offense I come from a strange situation too). Now all of these children will be on that level, only with overworked parents who never wanted to homeschool in the first place.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  <<Now all of these children will be on that level, only with overworked parents who never wanted to homeschool in the first place. I think this is the relevant quote. Homeschooling parents already self-selected as it were. It is a little bit like Linux. You get in knowing it will require some level of effort. People who choose Windows have no time to devote to that kind of learning. I would not feel comfortable mandating Linux for everyone. Some people are just not ready for responsibility. I was not homeschooled, but my grammar school experience was borderline horrible and did not improve until private HS ( mostly because my peers were all, well, smarter than me ). I think you have a point, but it goes back to the question about parents' responsibility and their failures as parents. I am not trying to make anyone feel bad, but we need to be able to qualify results somehow.
- lettergram 4y ago
  Oh I agree. That said, I know the families who kept their kids in school have crazy other issues in our area. Many had delayed speech by a year and what not. Really not great options, we just did the best we could with what we had. It turned out well and I suggested it to others (if you can, being key). If you can also implies that you want to do it.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  I was homeschooled. It definitely isn't for everyone. I mean it was basically a full-time job for my mom. We had a group that we sometimes did events with, so I have more than a couple friends who were too. A few homeschooled acquaintances are kind of weirdos. But most of the folks from my homeschool friend group are totally normal. And a couple have really sparkling personalities -- I think they actually ended up with abnormally good social skills by hanging around with adults during their childhood, and not engaging in the weird social pressure cooker of highschool. I suspect the reputation comes from the outliers -- most people don't know I was homeschooled until I tell them. If you could figure it out on your own, it would have to be the case that I was a real weirdo.
InitialLastName 4y ago
> You know which group didn’t suffer learning loss? Homeschooled children, w So, the group that had already self-selected for independent learning and who had the financial capacity for one parent to not work did fine [0]. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias
999900000999 4y ago
To be fair, the kids who are really doing poorly, are the ones who don't have stable homes. Obviously if you have the means to homeschool, you have stability. I didn't have a stable home, and no matter how many stupid teachers told me I could still do well in school, just doesn't happen. I've been making six figures for the last 7 years though so that counts for something
kjhgkjghkj 4y ago
Which one of you gave up a career to do this? FWIW, I was home-taught up till 16. In my experience, there are a lot of pluses and negatives to consider, for the long-term health, wealth, and happiness of homeschooled kids (especially for continuing homeschooling for that logo). In my opinion, you need at least some reference to the current acceptable social and academic standards (for a variety of reasons, I had neither).
- lettergram 4y ago
  > Which one of you gave up a career to do this? Neither. I moved to a remote job in a different time zone that worked odd hours. My wife was able to move her hours to weekends and opposite hours. My kids are in a lot of different activities in the community and we have friends and family we see regularly. Getting to know the new ugh it’s as well is always good. I can definitely see people doing this poorly. And my wife and I definitely missed stuff. But you learn. The public school I grew up in (wife attended the same one) was one of the worst in the state. Fights, stabbings, had to go through metal detectors, kids would yell all day in the classroom. We had one teacher arrested who was a pedophile and the kids all knew it for years but no one cared until after we left. That kind of school. Trust me, schools can be far worse than home. It really depends on each situation. That said, parents who care and are responsible are really the most important imo for any situation.
beefbudd69 4y ago
>its your fault nananana simply no, when the government makes it so you need 2 and a half parents working full time to be able to afford a paycheck to paycheck living IT's CLEARLY NOT OUR FAULT!
clavalle 4y ago
A lot to unpack here but I've seen homeschooling work wonderfully and completely fail -- within the same household. Homeschooling is not for every family, perhaps not for most families. Parents may not have the luxury of time. Teaching is a profession that requires a level of expertise in subject matter and the art of education itself that parents may not have. Kids have differing levels of intrensic motivation for learning school subjects. Some children do much better with other authority figures than their parents for some activities. Not to mention children with learning challenges that most parents are ill equipped to respond to adequetely. Not to mention the value of interacting with different people and viewpoints. And on and on. I'm glad your familiy has found success. I've seen it work and work amazingly for some. But I've also seen it fail badly. Schools, especially public schools, have their problems, no doubt, but if I had to place bets on which society would end up in a better place in two generations, one where everyone is homeschooled vs one where everyone goes to public school, it's no contest. Teaching done by professionals is going to win hands down.
- msmenardi 4y ago
  Homeschooled kids aren't taught by just their parent(s). They also learn from the subject matter experts who teach specific skills - I personally was enrolled in piano, martial arts, and swimming lessons, but there's plenty of classes that teach important skills that shore up the weaknesses in the parent's teaching toolkits. Aside from that, homeschooled kids learn from the world around them. They learn from their own experiences, and they develop their own discipline. They learn how to self-motivate, and how to explore the world around them. It was an eye-opening experience when I went to high school for a few years. I learned so little and wasted so much time, though I tried my hardest by asking questions, contributing to the class, and respecting my teachers. There's just so little that can be done when a single teacher is forced to administer 40+ children. Meanwhile, before high school I'd sit down and read a textbook for 4 hours (without being told to, just because I was interested). I'd go on long walks and sketch plants that I saw. Some days I'd do quite a lot, and other days I'd be done by noon. Even now I find myself approaching problems in a fundamentally different manner than my peers and I can't help but believe that it's because I grew unimpeded by the early academic process.
valeness 4y ago
Oh, so like everything else, just be rich. Got it bro.
- lettergram 4y ago
  Most of the homeschool families near me make like $40k a year. You just have to decide what’s important to you.
  - yunohn 4y ago
    If it’s that cheap, why did you need to upheave your life to achieve it? Would love to see a cost breakdown of homeschooling.
    - lettergram 4y ago
      Because you have to do it? So you have to make time, it’s not something you pay for besides opportunity cost. I probably paid $500 total for supplies
      - yunohn 4y ago
        What do you mean you don’t pay for homeschooling? Are you claiming that its not necessary to: - hire a tutor/teacher - buy important supplies like textbooks/sports/music/etc - fund learning and recreational trips Reading between the lines of your umpteen confusing comments in this thread, are you claiming that your partner gave up their paid job to tutor your kids for “free”? Is that the “opportunity cost”?

yunohn 4y ago

> Homeschooled children, which indicates to me the failure is ultimately with the parents. > I’m way more aware of the parents who take their responsibility seriously It’s hilarious how you think upheaving your entire life to homeschool your children is so easy and parents have failed if they don’t do so. It’s incredibly expensive and not scalable in any shape or form. This is why actual schools exist.

lelandfe 4y ago

> failure is ultimately with the parents Do you view a lack of time to homeschool as a parental failure? I know single parents working multiple jobs to scrape by. > moved, reconfigured our whole house, changed jobs, etc to ensure our kids got what they needed How would your comment go if you’d been unable to do any of this?

blitzar 4y ago
Reminds me of all the middle class knowlege workers who at peak covid smugly proclaimed that everyone should just "work from home", I'm doing it and I am very important so why isnt everyone else. Turns out the supermarket shelves arent at home and someone needs to deliver the toilet paper so you can panic buy your 200th roll that week.
giraffe_lady 4y ago
- lettergram 4y ago
  > This is a natural extension of the american/conservative "all consequences are the fault of the person experiencing them" ideology. You have a very weird view of conservatives that is really nothing like reality; at least based on what I’ve seen. First point, your comment implies that your view is it’s your neighbors are responsible for your child? So what, the pedophile next door should take care of your kid? Or should you move and take that responsibility? If is your responsibility to move or take action of some kind obviously. No conservative I’ve ever met have been anti-community or pro-suffering. They have their churches, their private schools, etc. they have more community than most. But they claim it’s your responsibility, because it is. It’s a fact, you can’t ignore. You don’t want your neighbor dictating how you raise your kids. You want help sometimes, that’s good. You can collaborate with people, but shouldn’t expect someone else to take care of something for you. In way of another example, if I got a dog, I wouldn’t expect my neighbor to feed it. That said, there’s a community shelter if the dog needs it. I came from a poor household, but my parents never shirked responsibility. There were many times they failed to live up to their expectations. But that doesn’t change the fact they tried and understood no one was going to do it but them. My brother and I started working early and we had to pull some weight or we wouldn’t have clothes. It’s the way it was, I suffered far less than those who had irresponsible parents.
- odessacubbage 4y ago
  the flipside of this is the attitude that suffering and deprivation is virtuous if it is mutual, that you have a 'responsibility' to buy in to a failing and now outright neglectful educational model out of poorly conceived notion that this is leveling the playing field. it isn't, it never has and it never will. the parents who compound the maximum advantages for their kids will win out and the ones who can't or wont will be stuck with another decade of 'no child left behind' given a new, vaguely utopian name.

mettamage 4y ago

> Frankly, I’m surprised people think the idea of putting “kids the same age” together will ever result in a more “normal” or better experience for kids. I call it age segregation.

tjr225 4y ago

Homeschooled children have always had a reputation for being quite a bit “off” socially(no offense I come from a strange situation too). Now all of these children will be on that level, only with overworked parents who never wanted to homeschool in the first place.

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
<<Now all of these children will be on that level, only with overworked parents who never wanted to homeschool in the first place. I think this is the relevant quote. Homeschooling parents already self-selected as it were. It is a little bit like Linux. You get in knowing it will require some level of effort. People who choose Windows have no time to devote to that kind of learning. I would not feel comfortable mandating Linux for everyone. Some people are just not ready for responsibility. I was not homeschooled, but my grammar school experience was borderline horrible and did not improve until private HS ( mostly because my peers were all, well, smarter than me ). I think you have a point, but it goes back to the question about parents' responsibility and their failures as parents. I am not trying to make anyone feel bad, but we need to be able to qualify results somehow.
lettergram 4y ago
Oh I agree. That said, I know the families who kept their kids in school have crazy other issues in our area. Many had delayed speech by a year and what not. Really not great options, we just did the best we could with what we had. It turned out well and I suggested it to others (if you can, being key). If you can also implies that you want to do it.
bee_rider 4y ago
I was homeschooled. It definitely isn't for everyone. I mean it was basically a full-time job for my mom. We had a group that we sometimes did events with, so I have more than a couple friends who were too. A few homeschooled acquaintances are kind of weirdos. But most of the folks from my homeschool friend group are totally normal. And a couple have really sparkling personalities -- I think they actually ended up with abnormally good social skills by hanging around with adults during their childhood, and not engaging in the weird social pressure cooker of highschool. I suspect the reputation comes from the outliers -- most people don't know I was homeschooled until I tell them. If you could figure it out on your own, it would have to be the case that I was a real weirdo.

InitialLastName 4y ago

> You know which group didn’t suffer learning loss? Homeschooled children, w So, the group that had already self-selected for independent learning and who had the financial capacity for one parent to not work did fine [0]. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias

999900000999 4y ago

To be fair, the kids who are really doing poorly, are the ones who don't have stable homes. Obviously if you have the means to homeschool, you have stability. I didn't have a stable home, and no matter how many stupid teachers told me I could still do well in school, just doesn't happen. I've been making six figures for the last 7 years though so that counts for something

kjhgkjghkj 4y ago

Which one of you gave up a career to do this? FWIW, I was home-taught up till 16. In my experience, there are a lot of pluses and negatives to consider, for the long-term health, wealth, and happiness of homeschooled kids (especially for continuing homeschooling for that logo). In my opinion, you need at least some reference to the current acceptable social and academic standards (for a variety of reasons, I had neither).

lettergram 4y ago
> Which one of you gave up a career to do this? Neither. I moved to a remote job in a different time zone that worked odd hours. My wife was able to move her hours to weekends and opposite hours. My kids are in a lot of different activities in the community and we have friends and family we see regularly. Getting to know the new ugh it’s as well is always good. I can definitely see people doing this poorly. And my wife and I definitely missed stuff. But you learn. The public school I grew up in (wife attended the same one) was one of the worst in the state. Fights, stabbings, had to go through metal detectors, kids would yell all day in the classroom. We had one teacher arrested who was a pedophile and the kids all knew it for years but no one cared until after we left. That kind of school. Trust me, schools can be far worse than home. It really depends on each situation. That said, parents who care and are responsible are really the most important imo for any situation.

beefbudd69 4y ago

>its your fault nananana simply no, when the government makes it so you need 2 and a half parents working full time to be able to afford a paycheck to paycheck living IT's CLEARLY NOT OUR FAULT!

clavalle 4y ago

A lot to unpack here but I've seen homeschooling work wonderfully and completely fail -- within the same household. Homeschooling is not for every family, perhaps not for most families. Parents may not have the luxury of time. Teaching is a profession that requires a level of expertise in subject matter and the art of education itself that parents may not have. Kids have differing levels of intrensic motivation for learning school subjects. Some children do much better with other authority figures than their parents for some activities. Not to mention children with learning challenges that most parents are ill equipped to respond to adequetely. Not to mention the value of interacting with different people and viewpoints. And on and on. I'm glad your familiy has found success. I've seen it work and work amazingly for some. But I've also seen it fail badly. Schools, especially public schools, have their problems, no doubt, but if I had to place bets on which society would end up in a better place in two generations, one where everyone is homeschooled vs one where everyone goes to public school, it's no contest. Teaching done by professionals is going to win hands down.

msmenardi 4y ago
Homeschooled kids aren't taught by just their parent(s). They also learn from the subject matter experts who teach specific skills - I personally was enrolled in piano, martial arts, and swimming lessons, but there's plenty of classes that teach important skills that shore up the weaknesses in the parent's teaching toolkits. Aside from that, homeschooled kids learn from the world around them. They learn from their own experiences, and they develop their own discipline. They learn how to self-motivate, and how to explore the world around them. It was an eye-opening experience when I went to high school for a few years. I learned so little and wasted so much time, though I tried my hardest by asking questions, contributing to the class, and respecting my teachers. There's just so little that can be done when a single teacher is forced to administer 40+ children. Meanwhile, before high school I'd sit down and read a textbook for 4 hours (without being told to, just because I was interested). I'd go on long walks and sketch plants that I saw. Some days I'd do quite a lot, and other days I'd be done by noon. Even now I find myself approaching problems in a fundamentally different manner than my peers and I can't help but believe that it's because I grew unimpeded by the early academic process.

valeness 4y ago

Oh, so like everything else, just be rich. Got it bro.

lettergram 4y ago
Most of the homeschool families near me make like $40k a year. You just have to decide what’s important to you.
- yunohn 4y ago
  If it’s that cheap, why did you need to upheave your life to achieve it? Would love to see a cost breakdown of homeschooling.
  - lettergram 4y ago
    Because you have to do it? So you have to make time, it’s not something you pay for besides opportunity cost. I probably paid $500 total for supplies
    - yunohn 4y ago
      What do you mean you don’t pay for homeschooling? Are you claiming that its not necessary to: - hire a tutor/teacher - buy important supplies like textbooks/sports/music/etc - fund learning and recreational trips Reading between the lines of your umpteen confusing comments in this thread, are you claiming that your partner gave up their paid job to tutor your kids for “free”? Is that the “opportunity cost”?