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IMO, electric cars are still too expensive for broad adoption. There really needs to be a strong used market for them before broad adoption is realistic. The ch

IMO, electric cars are still too expensive for broad adoption. There really needs to be a strong used market for them before broad adoption is realistic. The charging story (overnight plug-in) is also too expensive for most folks, too (most dense housing has no garages for the installation of a charger). I’m in the north, where 110v plugs are somewhat common for block heaters, but “common” still only means about 30% coverage. There’s also not enough room for anything but a standard power cable. Side note, can you imagine how bad thefts of copper rich, exotic connectors would be?

manholio 4y ago
EVs are (much) cheaper to run, for commuters that need a steady, predictable mileage within range, they are already less expensive in TCO terms for comparable quality/comfort. In Europe, where gas is insanely taxed, the operational costs of EVs are 4-5 times lower than ICE, you can save about 10,000€ per 100,000 km (62,000 miles) .
- logifail 4y ago
  > EVs are (much) cheaper to run [..] already less expensive in TCO terms for comparable quality/comfort. Errm, I would love this claim to be true for the smallest and cheapest new cars. Is it? Our smaller car cost €10k to buy outright, new, a few years ago. At that time the very same car was available as an EV for €23k. I'm concerned about climate change, fairly pro-EV, but we simply didn't have €13k to spare. We have every intention of keeping that car for another five years, unless something major goes wrong (all it's needed is standard servicing so far) Petrol and diesel have gone up everywhere, but electricity rates are rising too. Q: When will I be able to buy a four seater EV with similar range for a similar (inflation adjusted) price as the petrol-engined version?
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    Assuming that a vehicle goes 250,000 km before hitting the scrap heap: 250,000km / 6 kWh/km * 0.30 €/kWh overnight rate = €12,500 2500 100km * 6 l/100km * 2 €/l = €30,000 You could have saved substantially more than €13k, even if you had to finance the difference. Lifetime TCO is the proper metric, even if you only keep your car for 5 years. 2 major reasons. 1) anybody buying a used car obviously cares about costs, so is going to value fuel savings quite highly and should be willing to pay the appropriate premium. 2) In 5 years time in Europe the gasoline infrastructure will be starting to degrade and most used buyers will want EV's.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      It's highly unlikely that most consumers will get 250,000km (150k miles) out of a vehicle. The median ownership of a vehicle is under 5 years, and the median miles per year for a non-commercial vehicle is 12,000. Plus, you'll have to also pay the interest on that loan, and good credit is a must to avoid being stabbed in the back with interest rates with car lenders. EDIT: This does mean that a used car market for EVs is quite viable though.
      - bryanlarsen 4y ago
        Lifetime TCO is the appropriate metric. That's life of the car, not how long a single owner has it. Median lifetime is 19 years. At 12,000 miles/year that's 228,000 miles.
        falcolas 4y ago
        Respectfully, repeating it won't make it true. For a vast majority of car buyers, there are only two prices they will care about. How much it costs when they get it, and how much they get when they sell it. And to the original point, a low TCO will have no impact one someone's ability to buy the car in the first place.
        bryanlarsen 4y ago
        How much they get when they sell it is directly related to the remaining TCO of the car.
        falcolas 4y ago
        Not at all. Much like any other transaction under capitalism, it's based on what the buyer and seller can come to an agreement on. The cost to the seller is what they've paid, not how much might be saved over the coming years. And if you include a middleman, like a dealer for a trade-in, they won't ever pay for gas or maintenance, so they're even less inclined to factor the remaining TCO into the price.
- falcolas 4y ago
  I don't disagree, but TCO savings will only offset the larger up-front costs after nearly a decade+ of ownership (and most families in the US keep their cars for less than 5 years). The TCO for a used car is often even lower (even if the environmental cost is high), since you will pay a fraction of the cost of an EV, and some used cars can easily get over 30 mpg.
bryanlarsen 4y ago
The lifetime TCO of an electric car for most people is significantly lower than the lifetime TCO of a gasoline vehicle. If you put 250,000 miles on a F150 Lightning you'll save over $40,000 in most jurisdictions. Considering the truck starts at $40,000 that's a pretty substantial savings!
- falcolas 4y ago
  While absolutely true, that's a savings of $40k over 10+ years, yet you have to pay off that $40k in 5 (closer to $45-$50k with interest). You also need pretty dang good credit to avoid getting hit with a huge interest rate. Even with a lower total cost of ownership, folks still have to be able to buy it in the first place.
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    Absolutely. IMO the government should be providing interest free loans rather than tax credits to facilitate the adoption of electric vehicles and residential solar.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      My god. Can you imagine the uproar that would cause in the financial industry, where they can easily charge 20% interest rates for folks with poor credit, because they need a car to survive? In other words, it will never happen. It'd be awesome, but it's a dream at best.
supportlocal4h 4y ago
You've reminded me how many very different circumstances exist besides my own. I paid less than $15k for a 3yo PHEV pre-Russian invasion. It has a ~9kWh battery with <30 mile range. It saves me about $5/day on gas. I charge it every night on a 110v outlet for ~$0.70 and again at work for free (lucky me; $140.00/year perk saves me $500 gas). I could probably sell it for $18-20k today. (Four-door,five seatbelts with tons of leg room.) But you're right that it wouldn't make sense for apartment dwellers. And that counts a lot of people out.
devaler 4y ago
As someone who despises internal combustion engines I would love to get a battery-electric vehicle, but the delta between what I owe on the car (zero, fortunately)--and what I'd need to spend--would pay for gasoline for decades. I imagine other people feel similarly. Tax incentives help, but are a virtual drop in the gas tank. Still, should I need to replace my car, the only viable option for me is a BEV.

manholio 4y ago

EVs are (much) cheaper to run, for commuters that need a steady, predictable mileage within range, they are already less expensive in TCO terms for comparable quality/comfort. In Europe, where gas is insanely taxed, the operational costs of EVs are 4-5 times lower than ICE, you can save about 10,000€ per 100,000 km (62,000 miles) .

logifail 4y ago
> EVs are (much) cheaper to run [..] already less expensive in TCO terms for comparable quality/comfort. Errm, I would love this claim to be true for the smallest and cheapest new cars. Is it? Our smaller car cost €10k to buy outright, new, a few years ago. At that time the very same car was available as an EV for €23k. I'm concerned about climate change, fairly pro-EV, but we simply didn't have €13k to spare. We have every intention of keeping that car for another five years, unless something major goes wrong (all it's needed is standard servicing so far) Petrol and diesel have gone up everywhere, but electricity rates are rising too. Q: When will I be able to buy a four seater EV with similar range for a similar (inflation adjusted) price as the petrol-engined version?
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  Assuming that a vehicle goes 250,000 km before hitting the scrap heap: 250,000km / 6 kWh/km * 0.30 €/kWh overnight rate = €12,500 2500 100km * 6 l/100km * 2 €/l = €30,000 You could have saved substantially more than €13k, even if you had to finance the difference. Lifetime TCO is the proper metric, even if you only keep your car for 5 years. 2 major reasons. 1) anybody buying a used car obviously cares about costs, so is going to value fuel savings quite highly and should be willing to pay the appropriate premium. 2) In 5 years time in Europe the gasoline infrastructure will be starting to degrade and most used buyers will want EV's.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    It's highly unlikely that most consumers will get 250,000km (150k miles) out of a vehicle. The median ownership of a vehicle is under 5 years, and the median miles per year for a non-commercial vehicle is 12,000. Plus, you'll have to also pay the interest on that loan, and good credit is a must to avoid being stabbed in the back with interest rates with car lenders. EDIT: This does mean that a used car market for EVs is quite viable though.
    - bryanlarsen 4y ago
      Lifetime TCO is the appropriate metric. That's life of the car, not how long a single owner has it. Median lifetime is 19 years. At 12,000 miles/year that's 228,000 miles.
      - falcolas 4y ago
        Respectfully, repeating it won't make it true. For a vast majority of car buyers, there are only two prices they will care about. How much it costs when they get it, and how much they get when they sell it. And to the original point, a low TCO will have no impact one someone's ability to buy the car in the first place.
        bryanlarsen 4y ago
        How much they get when they sell it is directly related to the remaining TCO of the car.
        falcolas 4y ago
        Not at all. Much like any other transaction under capitalism, it's based on what the buyer and seller can come to an agreement on. The cost to the seller is what they've paid, not how much might be saved over the coming years. And if you include a middleman, like a dealer for a trade-in, they won't ever pay for gas or maintenance, so they're even less inclined to factor the remaining TCO into the price.
falcolas 4y ago
I don't disagree, but TCO savings will only offset the larger up-front costs after nearly a decade+ of ownership (and most families in the US keep their cars for less than 5 years). The TCO for a used car is often even lower (even if the environmental cost is high), since you will pay a fraction of the cost of an EV, and some used cars can easily get over 30 mpg.

bryanlarsen 4y ago

The lifetime TCO of an electric car for most people is significantly lower than the lifetime TCO of a gasoline vehicle. If you put 250,000 miles on a F150 Lightning you'll save over $40,000 in most jurisdictions. Considering the truck starts at $40,000 that's a pretty substantial savings!

falcolas 4y ago
While absolutely true, that's a savings of $40k over 10+ years, yet you have to pay off that $40k in 5 (closer to $45-$50k with interest). You also need pretty dang good credit to avoid getting hit with a huge interest rate. Even with a lower total cost of ownership, folks still have to be able to buy it in the first place.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  Absolutely. IMO the government should be providing interest free loans rather than tax credits to facilitate the adoption of electric vehicles and residential solar.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    My god. Can you imagine the uproar that would cause in the financial industry, where they can easily charge 20% interest rates for folks with poor credit, because they need a car to survive? In other words, it will never happen. It'd be awesome, but it's a dream at best.

supportlocal4h 4y ago

You've reminded me how many very different circumstances exist besides my own. I paid less than $15k for a 3yo PHEV pre-Russian invasion. It has a ~9kWh battery with <30 mile range. It saves me about $5/day on gas. I charge it every night on a 110v outlet for ~$0.70 and again at work for free (lucky me; $140.00/year perk saves me $500 gas). I could probably sell it for $18-20k today. (Four-door,five seatbelts with tons of leg room.) But you're right that it wouldn't make sense for apartment dwellers. And that counts a lot of people out.

devaler 4y ago

As someone who despises internal combustion engines I would love to get a battery-electric vehicle, but the delta between what I owe on the car (zero, fortunately)--and what I'd need to spend--would pay for gasoline for decades. I imagine other people feel similarly. Tax incentives help, but are a virtual drop in the gas tank. Still, should I need to replace my car, the only viable option for me is a BEV.