16 ms·

You were literally trying to make an argument that because Ukraine is geographically part of Europe, Ukraine being in a war means Europe is in a war. Which is n

by ibz 4y ago

You were literally trying to make an argument that because Ukraine is geographically part of Europe, Ukraine being in a war means Europe is in a war. Which is not the case. Again, Ukraine is in a war, Europe is not. Unless they decide to. And yes, I may be naive thinking that politicians should serve their citizen first rather than citizen of another country. It's easy to talk about values, but harder to put the said values in practice when you are cold and hungry. Most people in Eastern Europe have a very hard life already.

AndrewThrowaway 4y ago
So your arguments consist of ideas that: It is isolated conflict that should be solved between countries involved. If Russia is selling gas (anything) cheaper you should just buy it as it serves citizens of your country. Throwing nuclear is a mistake but it has nothing to do with Russia. My arguments are: Russia has "Imperial ambitions" towards Ukraine, Georgia, Baltics and etc. Putin is stating that collapse of Soviet Union was the biggest mistake ever, all the internal communications in Russia are very aggressive, Putin was threatening nuclear weapons in the beginning of the war and etc. Medvedev is on another level threatening everybody around - see my previous comment for example. This is where geography becomes important. While conflict is in Ukraine now, a lot of people believe that it might spread. Why? Because Russia is influencing EU politics, using soft-power, social media to influence opinions and etc. Russia is very much involved for a long time already. It is not like German addiction to Russian gas was not influenced by Russia. Russia has further ambitions, always had. Russia is not just calmly existing inside of its territory. It always had global agendas. Like any other country. Values. In the end Europeans have some values and most importantly EU is built on some fundamental values. Democracy, human rights and etc. Authoritarian country starting land wars in the Europe and threatening others does not sit right with it. I can't agree that "most people in Eastern Europe have a very hard life already". Define "most" and "very hard life". It just means nothing. The thinking is that being at war is on another level "very hard". So keeping in mind these it looks natural for EU to get involved. Because there is a belief in values and a belief that if Russia is not stopped, conflict can roll over to further countries. A lot of rhetoric from Russia actually state it.
- ibz 4y ago
  You are assuming that Russia has any interest beyond the borders of the USSR, which is quite a strong assumption. By this logic you probably also supported the invasion of Iraq based on the assumption that they were producing nuclear weapons. However, decisions to join a war need to be taken based on logical and provable arguments, not based on irrational fears and assumptions. > Values. In the end Europeans have some values and most importantly EU is built on some fundamental values. Democracy, human rights and etc So we should be voting whether we want to support Ukraine, a non-EU entity, in any way - whether through imposing sanctions to Russia (which will later bite us back) or through sending them weapons (which will only escalate the war). It seems like you are arguing for straight out authoritarianism: joining a war against popular support. > I can't agree that "most people in Eastern Europe have a very hard life already". Define "most" and "very hard life". It just means nothing. The thinking is that being at war is on another level "very hard". If you spent any time with regular people in the Eastern Europe you would understand. But again, you are arguing that we are or should be in a war and hence this is acceptable. It is not. It is pure gaslighting. At this point it seems like you are pro-war and would say anything to convince people that they should be part of a war. I wonder why.
  - AndrewThrowaway 4y ago
    > You are assuming that Russia has any interest beyond the borders of the USSR Again refer to Medvedev's comment about "the creation of an open Eurasia from Lisbon to Vladivostok". Then again what would be Russia's interest in USSR? Do you believe that Russia has any rights to Poland, Ukraine, Estonia?
    - ibz 4y ago
      I don't believe they have any rights to invade any countries, including Ukraine. But I also don't believe in joining a war against a country that invaded another country just because "you think they might not stop at that". If you join a war against somebody that never attacked you in the first place, you are an aggressor, regardless of what they did to others.

by ibz 4y ago

AndrewThrowaway 4y ago

So your arguments consist of ideas that: It is isolated conflict that should be solved between countries involved. If Russia is selling gas (anything) cheaper you should just buy it as it serves citizens of your country. Throwing nuclear is a mistake but it has nothing to do with Russia. My arguments are: Russia has "Imperial ambitions" towards Ukraine, Georgia, Baltics and etc. Putin is stating that collapse of Soviet Union was the biggest mistake ever, all the internal communications in Russia are very aggressive, Putin was threatening nuclear weapons in the beginning of the war and etc. Medvedev is on another level threatening everybody around - see my previous comment for example. This is where geography becomes important. While conflict is in Ukraine now, a lot of people believe that it might spread. Why? Because Russia is influencing EU politics, using soft-power, social media to influence opinions and etc. Russia is very much involved for a long time already. It is not like German addiction to Russian gas was not influenced by Russia. Russia has further ambitions, always had. Russia is not just calmly existing inside of its territory. It always had global agendas. Like any other country. Values. In the end Europeans have some values and most importantly EU is built on some fundamental values. Democracy, human rights and etc. Authoritarian country starting land wars in the Europe and threatening others does not sit right with it. I can't agree that "most people in Eastern Europe have a very hard life already". Define "most" and "very hard life". It just means nothing. The thinking is that being at war is on another level "very hard". So keeping in mind these it looks natural for EU to get involved. Because there is a belief in values and a belief that if Russia is not stopped, conflict can roll over to further countries. A lot of rhetoric from Russia actually state it.

ibz 4y ago
You are assuming that Russia has any interest beyond the borders of the USSR, which is quite a strong assumption. By this logic you probably also supported the invasion of Iraq based on the assumption that they were producing nuclear weapons. However, decisions to join a war need to be taken based on logical and provable arguments, not based on irrational fears and assumptions. > Values. In the end Europeans have some values and most importantly EU is built on some fundamental values. Democracy, human rights and etc So we should be voting whether we want to support Ukraine, a non-EU entity, in any way - whether through imposing sanctions to Russia (which will later bite us back) or through sending them weapons (which will only escalate the war). It seems like you are arguing for straight out authoritarianism: joining a war against popular support. > I can't agree that "most people in Eastern Europe have a very hard life already". Define "most" and "very hard life". It just means nothing. The thinking is that being at war is on another level "very hard". If you spent any time with regular people in the Eastern Europe you would understand. But again, you are arguing that we are or should be in a war and hence this is acceptable. It is not. It is pure gaslighting. At this point it seems like you are pro-war and would say anything to convince people that they should be part of a war. I wonder why.
- AndrewThrowaway 4y ago
  > You are assuming that Russia has any interest beyond the borders of the USSR Again refer to Medvedev's comment about "the creation of an open Eurasia from Lisbon to Vladivostok". Then again what would be Russia's interest in USSR? Do you believe that Russia has any rights to Poland, Ukraine, Estonia?
  - ibz 4y ago
    I don't believe they have any rights to invade any countries, including Ukraine. But I also don't believe in joining a war against a country that invaded another country just because "you think they might not stop at that". If you join a war against somebody that never attacked you in the first place, you are an aggressor, regardless of what they did to others.