8 ms·

> Trying to curb Russia during the war the best they can. > Because we need not to forget that Europe is at war Europe is not at war. Or at least it wasn't unt

by ibz 4y ago

> Trying to curb Russia during the war the best they can. > Because we need not to forget that Europe is at war Europe is not at war. Or at least it wasn't until some politicians decided it was their business to intervene in somebody else's war. This is certainly against their own citizen. I am an EU citizen myself and I did not consent to join this war. > Not predicting Russian Imperial dreams of ruling the Europe? Sorry, but that was never the case and will never be the case. > Throwing nuclear out the window and becoming so dependent on Russian gas? Bingo! However, that was not Russia's fault. It was definitely self-sabotage.

mdp2021 4y ago
> This is certainly against their own citizen That is against /some/ of their own citizens - which since the rushed invention of politics (management of conflicting interests and ideals) is what is normal, so there is no news there.
AndrewThrowaway 4y ago
> Europe is not at war. Do you consider Ukraine not Europe? What is it then? > I am an EU citizen myself and I did not consent to join this war. You need to be naïve to think that anybody "consents" to a war. > > Not predicting Russian Imperial dreams of ruling the Europe? > Sorry, but that was never the case and will never be the case. Please refer to any rhetoric from Russian ruling class e.g. https://tass.com/politics/1432657 https://tass.com/politics/1432657 "the creation of an open Eurasia from Lisbon to Vladivostok". My guess would be that you are "sitting far from the war" and thinking that it is not yours. However countries in the beginning of WWII had exactly the same sentiments - "we are far and it is not ours". Until it knocks on your door. This is why EU reacts, EU wants to solve this while it is not so close.
- ibz 4y ago
  I am very close to the war - my country borders Ukraine, however - Ukraine is an independent entity and their war is none of my business. If I can get cheaper gas in Russia I will continue to do so. This is an open market and I don't see how self-sabotage (choosing to not buy the cheaper gas from Russia) benefits anyone, nor how it helps Ukraine. Russia can always choose to sell somewhere else (India, China) so less demand from the EU will not hurt them much. > Do you consider Ukraine not Europe? What is it then? What kind of argument is this? Just because this entity is geographically part of the same region as my country doesn't mean I need to choose anything less than the best deal I can get on any products from wherever I choose.
  - AndrewThrowaway 4y ago
    So if you see your neighbor beating his wife you of course say nothing. You are still greeting your neighbor everyday and buying eggs from his chicken farm. If his wife wants to leave, it is completely understandable and acceptable that he wants to kill her. HN is not a place for arguments like this but I am sorry to say to you that you are naïve, self-serving and seem to lack any values.
    - ibz 4y ago
      You were literally trying to make an argument that because Ukraine is geographically part of Europe, Ukraine being in a war means Europe is in a war. Which is not the case. Again, Ukraine is in a war, Europe is not. Unless they decide to. And yes, I may be naive thinking that politicians should serve their citizen first rather than citizen of another country. It's easy to talk about values, but harder to put the said values in practice when you are cold and hungry. Most people in Eastern Europe have a very hard life already.
      - AndrewThrowaway 4y ago
        So your arguments consist of ideas that: It is isolated conflict that should be solved between countries involved. If Russia is selling gas (anything) cheaper you should just buy it as it serves citizens of your country. Throwing nuclear is a mistake but it has nothing to do with Russia. My arguments are: Russia has "Imperial ambitions" towards Ukraine, Georgia, Baltics and etc. Putin is stating that collapse of Soviet Union was the biggest mistake ever, all the internal communications in Russia are very aggressive, Putin was threatening nuclear weapons in the beginning of the war and etc. Medvedev is on another level threatening everybody around - see my previous comment for example. This is where geography becomes important. While conflict is in Ukraine now, a lot of people believe that it might spread. Why? Because Russia is influencing EU politics, using soft-power, social media to influence opinions and etc. Russia is very much involved for a long time already. It is not like German addiction to Russian gas was not influenced by Russia. Russia has further ambitions, always had. Russia is not just calmly existing inside of its territory. It always had global agendas. Like any other country. Values. In the end Europeans have some values and most importantly EU is built on some fundamental values. Democracy, human rights and etc. Authoritarian country starting land wars in the Europe and threatening others does not sit right with it. I can't agree that "most people in Eastern Europe have a very hard life already". Define "most" and "very hard life". It just means nothing. The thinking is that being at war is on another level "very hard". So keeping in mind these it looks natural for EU to get involved. Because there is a belief in values and a belief that if Russia is not stopped, conflict can roll over to further countries. A lot of rhetoric from Russia actually state it.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by ibz 4y ago

mdp2021 4y ago

> This is certainly against their own citizen That is against /some/ of their own citizens - which since the rushed invention of politics (management of conflicting interests and ideals) is what is normal, so there is no news there.

AndrewThrowaway 4y ago

> Europe is not at war. Do you consider Ukraine not Europe? What is it then? > I am an EU citizen myself and I did not consent to join this war. You need to be naïve to think that anybody "consents" to a war. > > Not predicting Russian Imperial dreams of ruling the Europe? > Sorry, but that was never the case and will never be the case. Please refer to any rhetoric from Russian ruling class e.g. https://tass.com/politics/1432657 https://tass.com/politics/1432657 "the creation of an open Eurasia from Lisbon to Vladivostok". My guess would be that you are "sitting far from the war" and thinking that it is not yours. However countries in the beginning of WWII had exactly the same sentiments - "we are far and it is not ours". Until it knocks on your door. This is why EU reacts, EU wants to solve this while it is not so close.

ibz 4y ago
I am very close to the war - my country borders Ukraine, however - Ukraine is an independent entity and their war is none of my business. If I can get cheaper gas in Russia I will continue to do so. This is an open market and I don't see how self-sabotage (choosing to not buy the cheaper gas from Russia) benefits anyone, nor how it helps Ukraine. Russia can always choose to sell somewhere else (India, China) so less demand from the EU will not hurt them much. > Do you consider Ukraine not Europe? What is it then? What kind of argument is this? Just because this entity is geographically part of the same region as my country doesn't mean I need to choose anything less than the best deal I can get on any products from wherever I choose.
- AndrewThrowaway 4y ago
  So if you see your neighbor beating his wife you of course say nothing. You are still greeting your neighbor everyday and buying eggs from his chicken farm. If his wife wants to leave, it is completely understandable and acceptable that he wants to kill her. HN is not a place for arguments like this but I am sorry to say to you that you are naïve, self-serving and seem to lack any values.
  - ibz 4y ago
    You were literally trying to make an argument that because Ukraine is geographically part of Europe, Ukraine being in a war means Europe is in a war. Which is not the case. Again, Ukraine is in a war, Europe is not. Unless they decide to. And yes, I may be naive thinking that politicians should serve their citizen first rather than citizen of another country. It's easy to talk about values, but harder to put the said values in practice when you are cold and hungry. Most people in Eastern Europe have a very hard life already.
    - AndrewThrowaway 4y ago
      So your arguments consist of ideas that: It is isolated conflict that should be solved between countries involved. If Russia is selling gas (anything) cheaper you should just buy it as it serves citizens of your country. Throwing nuclear is a mistake but it has nothing to do with Russia. My arguments are: Russia has "Imperial ambitions" towards Ukraine, Georgia, Baltics and etc. Putin is stating that collapse of Soviet Union was the biggest mistake ever, all the internal communications in Russia are very aggressive, Putin was threatening nuclear weapons in the beginning of the war and etc. Medvedev is on another level threatening everybody around - see my previous comment for example. This is where geography becomes important. While conflict is in Ukraine now, a lot of people believe that it might spread. Why? Because Russia is influencing EU politics, using soft-power, social media to influence opinions and etc. Russia is very much involved for a long time already. It is not like German addiction to Russian gas was not influenced by Russia. Russia has further ambitions, always had. Russia is not just calmly existing inside of its territory. It always had global agendas. Like any other country. Values. In the end Europeans have some values and most importantly EU is built on some fundamental values. Democracy, human rights and etc. Authoritarian country starting land wars in the Europe and threatening others does not sit right with it. I can't agree that "most people in Eastern Europe have a very hard life already". Define "most" and "very hard life". It just means nothing. The thinking is that being at war is on another level "very hard". So keeping in mind these it looks natural for EU to get involved. Because there is a belief in values and a belief that if Russia is not stopped, conflict can roll over to further countries. A lot of rhetoric from Russia actually state it.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]