8 ms·

Is it Russia stopping exports to the EU or the EU deciding to stop buying gas from Russia? To me it seems like they are simply taking decisions against their ci

by ibz 4y ago

Is it Russia stopping exports to the EU or the EU deciding to stop buying gas from Russia? To me it seems like they are simply taking decisions against their citizens best interests.

_ph_ 4y ago
It is Russia ramping down exports for about a year already. Which shows how the war was a long planned operation. The European gas storage was ramped down and then the delivery slowly cut. This is the perfect example of "boiling a frog". The EU did not reduce their attempts of buying gas from Russia.
the_cramer 4y ago
Currently, Russia delivers less gas than expected, due to "technical issues". Repairs, that ought to be finished 21st of July. This is most likely not true and just a pressure point for Russia. If the repairs "fail" then Russia could switch of all of the gas. "Oops something broke"... The german government is not deciding against the people in this case. (i believe... a german). German people are highly against nuclear and think that renewables could immediately solve our problems. This is just a lack of information and a ton of ignorance on the peoples side. Apart from that our politicians are really "soft" in my eyes and i don't believe they will help the situation much in relation to Russia. edit: Don't know about the rest of EU. That's why i state "my" countries perspective more.
- _ph_ 4y ago
  Neither nuclear nor renewables would be useful right now for heating homes or powering the industry. There are few who would claim so - except for those, who try to abuse the gas shortage to push for nuclear, despite the decision about nuclear taken over 10 years ago.
  - AndrewThrowaway 4y ago
    It is not "right now". If nuclear was still an option, cheap electricity was an option, a lot of households would have electrical heating, heat pumps and etc. Now they all depends on gas for some time now because of these politics.
  - creato 4y ago
    Europe generates a lot of electricity from gas.
  - the_cramer 4y ago
    Especially in regards to Germany we would not have the current problem if we had decided or acted differently. Maybe pro-nuclear, maybe more building alternatives. For now you are right, we won't be able to activate anything nuclear till the winter. The funny thing is, the same people arguing against nuclear power (with mostly ridiculously unscientific arguments against all statistics) will be the ones complaining about the situation and that politics should save us all. I am very interested in the pro/contra nuclear discussion and the more i know about it, the more our current situation saddens me.
- mdp2021 4y ago
  > Repairs, that ought to be finished 21st of July. This is most likely not true Why should it be not true? Planned maintenance is fully normal and certainly occurs on that infrastructure. The differences to normality are: -- that sanctions have made the maintenance operations problematic: e.g. one turbine was held in Canada, and its release was agreed days ago only upon request from Germany. Why and how this process was impacted by the sanctions I do not know: it is what is reported by journalists; -- that during normal operations, during maintenance on the main pipeline the gas is redirected to the secondary pipeline in Ukraine, hiding the technical works through such backup system. The secondary pipeline is inactive because of the war.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    > Why should it be not true Anyone taking anything coming out of Russia at face value hasn't been paying attention or is painfully naïve.
    - mdp2021 4y ago
      The post was about these maintenance operations. I have not met a commentator calling their current need not credible. Normally they last similarly to what was stated; in this specific case to take for granted that normal operation will not resume more data is needed if you want to be out of a simple "place your bets" discussion. Diffidence is a generic scalar, function result of the speaker - ok -, but diffidence over something specific calls for extra consideration, not just immediate dismissal. Edit: That the stream will return flowing - this was never something that we assumed. But for what the interruption of services is concerned, as pure normalcy, see the graphics at The Economist from S&P - the dents are quite regular...: https://cdn.espresso.economist.com/files/public/images/20220716_DAC134-01.jpg https://cdn.espresso.economist.com/files/public/images/20220... Just in order to calibrate diffidence to the right places.
- moltar 4y ago
  Not sure if related, but a few months ago there was a massive explosion at one of the terminals, I think. Wouldn’t be surprised if this was a sabotage operation.
AndrewThrowaway 4y ago
> simply taking decisions against their citizens best interests What decision do you have in mind? Throwing nuclear out the window and becoming so dependent on Russian gas? Not predicting Russian Imperial dreams of ruling the Europe? OR Trying to curb Russia during the war the best they can. Because we need not to forget that Europe is at war. It is Ukrainians who are doing all the fighting ATM but all the western world is very much involved.
- ibz 4y ago
  > Trying to curb Russia during the war the best they can. > Because we need not to forget that Europe is at war Europe is not at war. Or at least it wasn't until some politicians decided it was their business to intervene in somebody else's war. This is certainly against their own citizen. I am an EU citizen myself and I did not consent to join this war. > Not predicting Russian Imperial dreams of ruling the Europe? Sorry, but that was never the case and will never be the case. > Throwing nuclear out the window and becoming so dependent on Russian gas? Bingo! However, that was not Russia's fault. It was definitely self-sabotage.
  - mdp2021 4y ago
    > This is certainly against their own citizen That is against /some/ of their own citizens - which since the rushed invention of politics (management of conflicting interests and ideals) is what is normal, so there is no news there.
  - AndrewThrowaway 4y ago
    > Europe is not at war. Do you consider Ukraine not Europe? What is it then? > I am an EU citizen myself and I did not consent to join this war. You need to be naïve to think that anybody "consents" to a war. > > Not predicting Russian Imperial dreams of ruling the Europe? > Sorry, but that was never the case and will never be the case. Please refer to any rhetoric from Russian ruling class e.g. https://tass.com/politics/1432657 https://tass.com/politics/1432657 "the creation of an open Eurasia from Lisbon to Vladivostok". My guess would be that you are "sitting far from the war" and thinking that it is not yours. However countries in the beginning of WWII had exactly the same sentiments - "we are far and it is not ours". Until it knocks on your door. This is why EU reacts, EU wants to solve this while it is not so close.
moltar 4y ago
EU has definitely decided not to import. Since Nordstream 2 is fully ready. And it’s even filled with gas to the brim. But EU won’t approve it for political reasons. Mostly because the US had meddled with it to gain an advantage and provide their own expensive gas via shipping tankers.
- parkingrift 4y ago
  The US for years desperately tried to convince the EU to rid themselves of Russian energy dependency. Angela Merkel, Germany, and the EU made their bed. It’s comical to now blame this situation on the US.
  - moltar 4y ago
    > rid themselves of Russian energy dependency In favour of what? Dependency on the US gas at x2 the price? How's EU industry supposed to remain competitive at this energy prices?
    - parkingrift 4y ago
      The US has no such desire or even capacity to supply Europe with liquid natural gas. Nor does Europe have capacity to receive it. The goal was, always has been, and still is for the EU to have energy independence. That can only be accomplished by the EU pumping their own gas and oil, building their own nuclear power plants, etc. There is no lack of natural resources in Europe. Just a lack of planning, and an excess of unrealistic green ideology.
      - moltar 4y ago
        What about this: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-07/the-us-is-now-sending-the-bulk-of-its-export-gas-to-europe https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-07/the-us-is...
        parkingrift 4y ago
popcube 4y ago
I am so happy that EU decided to suffer for this, everyone including Russian government did not trust this will happen before war started.

by ibz 4y ago

Is it Russia stopping exports to the EU or the EU deciding to stop buying gas from Russia? To me it seems like they are simply taking decisions against their citizens best interests.

_ph_ 4y ago

It is Russia ramping down exports for about a year already. Which shows how the war was a long planned operation. The European gas storage was ramped down and then the delivery slowly cut. This is the perfect example of "boiling a frog". The EU did not reduce their attempts of buying gas from Russia.

the_cramer 4y ago

Currently, Russia delivers less gas than expected, due to "technical issues". Repairs, that ought to be finished 21st of July. This is most likely not true and just a pressure point for Russia. If the repairs "fail" then Russia could switch of all of the gas. "Oops something broke"... The german government is not deciding against the people in this case. (i believe... a german). German people are highly against nuclear and think that renewables could immediately solve our problems. This is just a lack of information and a ton of ignorance on the peoples side. Apart from that our politicians are really "soft" in my eyes and i don't believe they will help the situation much in relation to Russia. edit: Don't know about the rest of EU. That's why i state "my" countries perspective more.

_ph_ 4y ago
Neither nuclear nor renewables would be useful right now for heating homes or powering the industry. There are few who would claim so - except for those, who try to abuse the gas shortage to push for nuclear, despite the decision about nuclear taken over 10 years ago.
- AndrewThrowaway 4y ago
  It is not "right now". If nuclear was still an option, cheap electricity was an option, a lot of households would have electrical heating, heat pumps and etc. Now they all depends on gas for some time now because of these politics.
- creato 4y ago
  Europe generates a lot of electricity from gas.
- the_cramer 4y ago
  Especially in regards to Germany we would not have the current problem if we had decided or acted differently. Maybe pro-nuclear, maybe more building alternatives. For now you are right, we won't be able to activate anything nuclear till the winter. The funny thing is, the same people arguing against nuclear power (with mostly ridiculously unscientific arguments against all statistics) will be the ones complaining about the situation and that politics should save us all. I am very interested in the pro/contra nuclear discussion and the more i know about it, the more our current situation saddens me.
mdp2021 4y ago
> Repairs, that ought to be finished 21st of July. This is most likely not true Why should it be not true? Planned maintenance is fully normal and certainly occurs on that infrastructure. The differences to normality are: -- that sanctions have made the maintenance operations problematic: e.g. one turbine was held in Canada, and its release was agreed days ago only upon request from Germany. Why and how this process was impacted by the sanctions I do not know: it is what is reported by journalists; -- that during normal operations, during maintenance on the main pipeline the gas is redirected to the secondary pipeline in Ukraine, hiding the technical works through such backup system. The secondary pipeline is inactive because of the war.
- sofixa 4y ago
  > Why should it be not true Anyone taking anything coming out of Russia at face value hasn't been paying attention or is painfully naïve.
  - mdp2021 4y ago
    The post was about these maintenance operations. I have not met a commentator calling their current need not credible. Normally they last similarly to what was stated; in this specific case to take for granted that normal operation will not resume more data is needed if you want to be out of a simple "place your bets" discussion. Diffidence is a generic scalar, function result of the speaker - ok -, but diffidence over something specific calls for extra consideration, not just immediate dismissal. Edit: That the stream will return flowing - this was never something that we assumed. But for what the interruption of services is concerned, as pure normalcy, see the graphics at The Economist from S&P - the dents are quite regular...: https://cdn.espresso.economist.com/files/public/images/20220716_DAC134-01.jpg https://cdn.espresso.economist.com/files/public/images/20220... Just in order to calibrate diffidence to the right places.
moltar 4y ago
Not sure if related, but a few months ago there was a massive explosion at one of the terminals, I think. Wouldn’t be surprised if this was a sabotage operation.

AndrewThrowaway 4y ago

> simply taking decisions against their citizens best interests What decision do you have in mind? Throwing nuclear out the window and becoming so dependent on Russian gas? Not predicting Russian Imperial dreams of ruling the Europe? OR Trying to curb Russia during the war the best they can. Because we need not to forget that Europe is at war. It is Ukrainians who are doing all the fighting ATM but all the western world is very much involved.

ibz 4y ago
> Trying to curb Russia during the war the best they can. > Because we need not to forget that Europe is at war Europe is not at war. Or at least it wasn't until some politicians decided it was their business to intervene in somebody else's war. This is certainly against their own citizen. I am an EU citizen myself and I did not consent to join this war. > Not predicting Russian Imperial dreams of ruling the Europe? Sorry, but that was never the case and will never be the case. > Throwing nuclear out the window and becoming so dependent on Russian gas? Bingo! However, that was not Russia's fault. It was definitely self-sabotage.
- mdp2021 4y ago
  > This is certainly against their own citizen That is against /some/ of their own citizens - which since the rushed invention of politics (management of conflicting interests and ideals) is what is normal, so there is no news there.
- AndrewThrowaway 4y ago
  > Europe is not at war. Do you consider Ukraine not Europe? What is it then? > I am an EU citizen myself and I did not consent to join this war. You need to be naïve to think that anybody "consents" to a war. > > Not predicting Russian Imperial dreams of ruling the Europe? > Sorry, but that was never the case and will never be the case. Please refer to any rhetoric from Russian ruling class e.g. https://tass.com/politics/1432657 https://tass.com/politics/1432657 "the creation of an open Eurasia from Lisbon to Vladivostok". My guess would be that you are "sitting far from the war" and thinking that it is not yours. However countries in the beginning of WWII had exactly the same sentiments - "we are far and it is not ours". Until it knocks on your door. This is why EU reacts, EU wants to solve this while it is not so close.

moltar 4y ago

EU has definitely decided not to import. Since Nordstream 2 is fully ready. And it’s even filled with gas to the brim. But EU won’t approve it for political reasons. Mostly because the US had meddled with it to gain an advantage and provide their own expensive gas via shipping tankers.

parkingrift 4y ago
The US for years desperately tried to convince the EU to rid themselves of Russian energy dependency. Angela Merkel, Germany, and the EU made their bed. It’s comical to now blame this situation on the US.
- moltar 4y ago
  > rid themselves of Russian energy dependency In favour of what? Dependency on the US gas at x2 the price? How's EU industry supposed to remain competitive at this energy prices?
  - parkingrift 4y ago
    The US has no such desire or even capacity to supply Europe with liquid natural gas. Nor does Europe have capacity to receive it. The goal was, always has been, and still is for the EU to have energy independence. That can only be accomplished by the EU pumping their own gas and oil, building their own nuclear power plants, etc. There is no lack of natural resources in Europe. Just a lack of planning, and an excess of unrealistic green ideology.
    - moltar 4y ago
      What about this: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-07/the-us-is-now-sending-the-bulk-of-its-export-gas-to-europe https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-07/the-us-is...
      - parkingrift 4y ago

popcube 4y ago

I am so happy that EU decided to suffer for this, everyone including Russian government did not trust this will happen before war started.