8 ms·

It's truly remarkable how badly the whole energy sector was managed in the past 16 years of Angela Merkel and her conservative-lead coalitions. It's not about n

by simfoo 4y ago

It's truly remarkable how badly the whole energy sector was managed in the past 16 years of Angela Merkel and her conservative-lead coalitions. It's not about nuclear or no nuclear really, Germany started out with a strong wind and solar industry and has lost all of it to China over the past decade. New wind turbines and (importantly) new power lines connecting the wind-heavy north to the power hungry south have been continuously delayed by nimby politics, also mostly pushed by conservative parties. Meanwhile the coal and nuclear industry got huge compensation payments and issuing new debt to finance investments was basically made unconstitutional by the horrible "Schuldenbremse" legislation. How bad can you fuck up country and still be seen mostly positive in the world??

88840-8855 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- baq 4y ago
  You’re recommending the exact thing that brought us to where we are: doing business with mafia. Putin’s Russia is a kleptocratic state and will pull out of any deal as soon as it thinks it can afford to ’renegotiate’. Not planning for this obvious alternative which all of Eastern European countries cried about for the last decade or two is idiocy mixed with hope and superiority complex.
  - moltar 4y ago
    > pull out of any deal as soon as it thinks it can afford to ’renegotiate’. I think that’s called a “free market”. Also one of the ideals that parent poster mentions. I don’t think Gasprom, to my knowledge, is breaking any legal contractual obligations.
  - 88840-8855 4y ago
    Where is the evidence? The Russians are delivering as it was ordered. It is us (the "rule based" loving West) who did not open Nord Stream 2 although it was finished. The pipeline is filled with 200bar right now and it is us who are ignoring all contracts. We are going that far that we expropriate Russian companies and seizing their assets. Sorry, I see populism there, not the rule based bs that the propaganda is telling me. No, my friend. I do not support the Western war against Russia. Perhaps Russia has started the war against Ukraine, but it was us who entered the war against Russia. And we should be thankful that they still deliver! This shit move "pUtIn HiTlEr.. we get your gas, but we pay only in Euros, but you cannot use the Euros xDDDDDDDD demoncrency wins" was so much trash.. we should be thankful that we can any cubic meter right now.
    - lifty 4y ago
      I can sympathize with your point of view and it’s fair if people want to only care about their own back yard. But if we take that path and give up on Ukraine, the EU as a project is fucked. I won’t repeat what other commenters mentioned, but our (EU) energy strategy has been pretty bad. Hopefully we can turn things around.
- gambiting 4y ago
  >>and entering the war against Russia is because we believe that Russian values are WRONG and only our values are RIGHT. I genuinely believe HN is being inflitrated by Russian bots left and right(or, alternatively, that people who live far far away from the conflict somehow feel compelled to voice their opinion). My family is housing multiple Ukrainian families of refugees - the stories of their close ones, their towns and homes being blown to pieces by Russians, of having to search for your dead relatives on empty streets, of mourning your children killed in the strikes - that's the reality. It's not about ideals or agreeing with or disagreeing with Russia. >>Those who say "this is not my war" (me and millions and millions and millions of other Germans) should get the good, clean, warm gas from Russia. I literally can't explain how angry your statement makes me. I think in the last century you'd happily support a certain German regime as long it made sure your house was warm in winter, right? After all, all you need to do is say "it's not my war" and suddenly any moral questions don't apply any more, right?
  - zwaps 4y ago
    Here's something that makes me angry: We (as in Europe) were in a refugee crisis for a long time. And yet, many countries washed their hands clean of it - with the most demeaning and undignified rhetoric. For instance, the majority of Polish citizens have not shown a single bit of decency towards refugees from Syria and Iraq - for decades. Almost no refugee was allowed in, and other were treated like subhumans. Now there is a sudden sympathy for refugees - and we ALL know the true reason for it: They are white Christians. If you'd listen to Syrians, they'd tell you the same horrible stories about war. But a good portion of Europe, especially the portion of Europe that suddenly has discovered its morality, did not listen. The hypocrisy of it all makes me angry - and I am not particularly interested in treating this war as any more - or any less - horrible than the last one.
    - Swenrekcah 4y ago
      This is just human nature 101. We care more about things that happen closer to us than far away, and more about people we can relate better with than people we relate worse with. There’s no point in being mad at people housing Ukrainians for not having housed Syrians.
isoprophlex 4y ago
In 10 years or so, maybe everyone and their mother is back to burning coal. I'm convinced that even in the face of prolonged economical downturn, we'll still be able to increase our greenhouse gas emissions. For fucks sake, in The Netherlands, we are burning WOOD for """green energy""", while everyone NIMBYs the fuck out of any windmill or power grid expansion project. Sometimes we, as a species, act in a monumentally stupid manner.
- notsapiensatall 4y ago
  Part of the problem is that we don't act as a species. We act as a bunch of individuals, each responding to the incentives which are put before us. You'll never get people to stop doing something if it is easy and profitable.
  - 88840-8855 4y ago
    - baxtr 4y ago
      So Asia is one big thing?
    - notsapiensatall 4y ago
      I'm saying that you can't expect humanity to act in its own interests, because you can expect humans to act in their own interests. It's a people thing, not a cultural thing. Successful societies are ones that find ways to make good behavior cheap and easy.
- beebmam 4y ago
  Solar/wind is highly overrated in Europe. Nuclear is really the only option in Europe that's climate change friendly. Incredible that there's been a push away from it. Realistically, in this new world (since Russia's invasion of Ukraine and China's coordination and complicity in it), there's zero reason for China or Russia or any of their allies to coordinate with the rest of the world to reduce greenhouse emissions, especially when their economies are so heavily dependent on greenhouse gas for their energy sources and GDP. Deglobalization is going ahead full-speed, and the forces based upon globalization were the only real way to rein in other countries' behaviors in a peaceful way. So why should the US and EU cripple themselves? The world is in a state of war, and we need to start acting like it. Nuclear energy is a great solution that solves both climate change and energy demands, but it will take a long time for any country to get there.
armitron 4y ago
A state’s responsibility is first and foremost to its people. European states collectively messed up by going against their interests: sanctions on Russia were colossally stupid. The people are starting to wake up and see through the charade leading to an interesting winter. I predict mass protests in a number of places.
- gambiting 4y ago
  >>sanctions on Russia were colossally stupid Only in the sense that they weren't harsh enough, yes. They are stupid in how many areas they haven't tackled yet.
- g42gregory 4y ago
  Is there a reason to believe that this was done on purpose and not because of stupidity? High energy prices stimulate transition to the green energy, and there are literally $trillions to be made there.
- mdp2021 4y ago
  With that formulation, you seem to be considering short-term interests only. (Apart from hints of seeing practical interests only.)
- 88840-8855 4y ago
  I fully agree. The sanctions must be taken back, Ukraine must be divided and de-militarized, relationship with Russia and China MUST be improved. All this as long as we can. Unfortuntatly, we only have trash politians in Germany. Once there are demonstrations against this shit system, I will join. For the first time in my life. I am sick and tired of this system that knows it better and just hurts us. No thanks.
  - raducu 4y ago
    > Ukraine must be divided and de-militarized Ukraine first, then Poland then the baltics, then all the way to Berlin, and when we're there, all the way to the Atlantic ocean. Russian shills, do you think we're that stupid? Russia must be split. During the Soviet times, the main enemy of the Soviet State was their own people which could revolt. The russian people today are sadly 90% behind Putin with his ruscism because of the effective propaganda -- today, the only real enemy of Russia is Reality and Truth itself and that's what Russia is really fighting. The only way to postpone reality & truth from emerging is perpetual war. Russia must be stopped in Ukraine in order for the reality of things to take hold in Russia and for Russia to be rebuilt on sane values.
baxtr 4y ago
What is definitively clear by now: They never did a proper "worst case" planning. They haven't thought through that case (no more Gas coming from Russia). It is ok to take some risks. It is not acceptable to be without a plan once these risks materialise.
- mdp2021 4y ago
  I have been discussing this with friends in-loco, and they witness - especially bewilderingly to the many of us that strongly plan in terms of business continuity - that backup plans are culturally not a priority in current Germany.¹ Friends report that it is seen in daily live in firms and elsewhere. Quite a strange note. ¹Consistently, they apparently put backup plans for worst-case scenarios "there where they must" (there where they must only - where it is part of the scripted plan, there where it is consolidated practice), not as a general consideration.
jollybean 4y ago
Wind installation and Wind gear are completely different things. On the former, it's not a competition. On the later, Chinese state massively subsidized the industry with the objective of wiping out foreign competition. That said, few saw a war with Russia coming. The Greens are the #1 culprit, for their social destruction of Nuclear over the last 50 years. If we were to have expanded Nuclear at the pace of 1980 we'd be within striking distance of getting away from fossil fuels. It might be too late now. It's going to be a crappy winter and I have no faith that politicians will be able to do the big pie in the sky strategy things necessary. A Nuclear rewnewal, alongside doubling down on renewables is in order on 'Marshall Project' scale. The stakes are high now.
- martijnvds 4y ago
  The "green" parties around Europe also tried to get people to switch to solar/wind and other renewables. But the parties in charge (with their oil company lobbyists) didn't want that. And now those parties are blaming the greens because "you told us to get rid of nuclear".
  - Swenrekcah 4y ago
    The technology is only just getting to the point a solar/wind grid is remotely feasible. Relying on it 40 years ago would have been laughable. Nuclear and hydropower are the only reliable options to be the backbone of the grid.
- mdp2021 4y ago
  > That said, few saw a war with Russia coming It was public doctrine in textbooks, taught at university. The warnings about moves at the chessboard (which in diplomacy often are issued in advance, contrary to chess) have been stated for decades, publicly and face to face. The products of the propaganda machine were quite reachable, and not really ambiguous. Really, that «few saw» is farcical. Edit: and it is quite worrisome to think that said "doctrine" is now implemented only up to a small fraction, and those expressions suggest blindness not just about the current actions, but the openly planned, stated future ones.

by simfoo 4y ago

88840-8855 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
baq 4y ago
You’re recommending the exact thing that brought us to where we are: doing business with mafia. Putin’s Russia is a kleptocratic state and will pull out of any deal as soon as it thinks it can afford to ’renegotiate’. Not planning for this obvious alternative which all of Eastern European countries cried about for the last decade or two is idiocy mixed with hope and superiority complex.
- moltar 4y ago
  > pull out of any deal as soon as it thinks it can afford to ’renegotiate’. I think that’s called a “free market”. Also one of the ideals that parent poster mentions. I don’t think Gasprom, to my knowledge, is breaking any legal contractual obligations.
- 88840-8855 4y ago
  Where is the evidence? The Russians are delivering as it was ordered. It is us (the "rule based" loving West) who did not open Nord Stream 2 although it was finished. The pipeline is filled with 200bar right now and it is us who are ignoring all contracts. We are going that far that we expropriate Russian companies and seizing their assets. Sorry, I see populism there, not the rule based bs that the propaganda is telling me. No, my friend. I do not support the Western war against Russia. Perhaps Russia has started the war against Ukraine, but it was us who entered the war against Russia. And we should be thankful that they still deliver! This shit move "pUtIn HiTlEr.. we get your gas, but we pay only in Euros, but you cannot use the Euros xDDDDDDDD demoncrency wins" was so much trash.. we should be thankful that we can any cubic meter right now.
  - lifty 4y ago
    I can sympathize with your point of view and it’s fair if people want to only care about their own back yard. But if we take that path and give up on Ukraine, the EU as a project is fucked. I won’t repeat what other commenters mentioned, but our (EU) energy strategy has been pretty bad. Hopefully we can turn things around.
gambiting 4y ago
>>and entering the war against Russia is because we believe that Russian values are WRONG and only our values are RIGHT. I genuinely believe HN is being inflitrated by Russian bots left and right(or, alternatively, that people who live far far away from the conflict somehow feel compelled to voice their opinion). My family is housing multiple Ukrainian families of refugees - the stories of their close ones, their towns and homes being blown to pieces by Russians, of having to search for your dead relatives on empty streets, of mourning your children killed in the strikes - that's the reality. It's not about ideals or agreeing with or disagreeing with Russia. >>Those who say "this is not my war" (me and millions and millions and millions of other Germans) should get the good, clean, warm gas from Russia. I literally can't explain how angry your statement makes me. I think in the last century you'd happily support a certain German regime as long it made sure your house was warm in winter, right? After all, all you need to do is say "it's not my war" and suddenly any moral questions don't apply any more, right?
- zwaps 4y ago
  Here's something that makes me angry: We (as in Europe) were in a refugee crisis for a long time. And yet, many countries washed their hands clean of it - with the most demeaning and undignified rhetoric. For instance, the majority of Polish citizens have not shown a single bit of decency towards refugees from Syria and Iraq - for decades. Almost no refugee was allowed in, and other were treated like subhumans. Now there is a sudden sympathy for refugees - and we ALL know the true reason for it: They are white Christians. If you'd listen to Syrians, they'd tell you the same horrible stories about war. But a good portion of Europe, especially the portion of Europe that suddenly has discovered its morality, did not listen. The hypocrisy of it all makes me angry - and I am not particularly interested in treating this war as any more - or any less - horrible than the last one.
  - Swenrekcah 4y ago
    This is just human nature 101. We care more about things that happen closer to us than far away, and more about people we can relate better with than people we relate worse with. There’s no point in being mad at people housing Ukrainians for not having housed Syrians.

isoprophlex 4y ago

In 10 years or so, maybe everyone and their mother is back to burning coal. I'm convinced that even in the face of prolonged economical downturn, we'll still be able to increase our greenhouse gas emissions. For fucks sake, in The Netherlands, we are burning WOOD for """green energy""", while everyone NIMBYs the fuck out of any windmill or power grid expansion project. Sometimes we, as a species, act in a monumentally stupid manner.

notsapiensatall 4y ago
Part of the problem is that we don't act as a species. We act as a bunch of individuals, each responding to the incentives which are put before us. You'll never get people to stop doing something if it is easy and profitable.
- 88840-8855 4y ago
  - baxtr 4y ago
    So Asia is one big thing?
  - notsapiensatall 4y ago
    I'm saying that you can't expect humanity to act in its own interests, because you can expect humans to act in their own interests. It's a people thing, not a cultural thing. Successful societies are ones that find ways to make good behavior cheap and easy.
beebmam 4y ago
Solar/wind is highly overrated in Europe. Nuclear is really the only option in Europe that's climate change friendly. Incredible that there's been a push away from it. Realistically, in this new world (since Russia's invasion of Ukraine and China's coordination and complicity in it), there's zero reason for China or Russia or any of their allies to coordinate with the rest of the world to reduce greenhouse emissions, especially when their economies are so heavily dependent on greenhouse gas for their energy sources and GDP. Deglobalization is going ahead full-speed, and the forces based upon globalization were the only real way to rein in other countries' behaviors in a peaceful way. So why should the US and EU cripple themselves? The world is in a state of war, and we need to start acting like it. Nuclear energy is a great solution that solves both climate change and energy demands, but it will take a long time for any country to get there.

armitron 4y ago

A state’s responsibility is first and foremost to its people. European states collectively messed up by going against their interests: sanctions on Russia were colossally stupid. The people are starting to wake up and see through the charade leading to an interesting winter. I predict mass protests in a number of places.

gambiting 4y ago
>>sanctions on Russia were colossally stupid Only in the sense that they weren't harsh enough, yes. They are stupid in how many areas they haven't tackled yet.
g42gregory 4y ago
Is there a reason to believe that this was done on purpose and not because of stupidity? High energy prices stimulate transition to the green energy, and there are literally $trillions to be made there.
mdp2021 4y ago
With that formulation, you seem to be considering short-term interests only. (Apart from hints of seeing practical interests only.)
88840-8855 4y ago
I fully agree. The sanctions must be taken back, Ukraine must be divided and de-militarized, relationship with Russia and China MUST be improved. All this as long as we can. Unfortuntatly, we only have trash politians in Germany. Once there are demonstrations against this shit system, I will join. For the first time in my life. I am sick and tired of this system that knows it better and just hurts us. No thanks.
- raducu 4y ago
  > Ukraine must be divided and de-militarized Ukraine first, then Poland then the baltics, then all the way to Berlin, and when we're there, all the way to the Atlantic ocean. Russian shills, do you think we're that stupid? Russia must be split. During the Soviet times, the main enemy of the Soviet State was their own people which could revolt. The russian people today are sadly 90% behind Putin with his ruscism because of the effective propaganda -- today, the only real enemy of Russia is Reality and Truth itself and that's what Russia is really fighting. The only way to postpone reality & truth from emerging is perpetual war. Russia must be stopped in Ukraine in order for the reality of things to take hold in Russia and for Russia to be rebuilt on sane values.

baxtr 4y ago

What is definitively clear by now: They never did a proper "worst case" planning. They haven't thought through that case (no more Gas coming from Russia). It is ok to take some risks. It is not acceptable to be without a plan once these risks materialise.

mdp2021 4y ago
I have been discussing this with friends in-loco, and they witness - especially bewilderingly to the many of us that strongly plan in terms of business continuity - that backup plans are culturally not a priority in current Germany.¹ Friends report that it is seen in daily live in firms and elsewhere. Quite a strange note. ¹Consistently, they apparently put backup plans for worst-case scenarios "there where they must" (there where they must only - where it is part of the scripted plan, there where it is consolidated practice), not as a general consideration.

jollybean 4y ago

Wind installation and Wind gear are completely different things. On the former, it's not a competition. On the later, Chinese state massively subsidized the industry with the objective of wiping out foreign competition. That said, few saw a war with Russia coming. The Greens are the #1 culprit, for their social destruction of Nuclear over the last 50 years. If we were to have expanded Nuclear at the pace of 1980 we'd be within striking distance of getting away from fossil fuels. It might be too late now. It's going to be a crappy winter and I have no faith that politicians will be able to do the big pie in the sky strategy things necessary. A Nuclear rewnewal, alongside doubling down on renewables is in order on 'Marshall Project' scale. The stakes are high now.

martijnvds 4y ago
The "green" parties around Europe also tried to get people to switch to solar/wind and other renewables. But the parties in charge (with their oil company lobbyists) didn't want that. And now those parties are blaming the greens because "you told us to get rid of nuclear".
- Swenrekcah 4y ago
  The technology is only just getting to the point a solar/wind grid is remotely feasible. Relying on it 40 years ago would have been laughable. Nuclear and hydropower are the only reliable options to be the backbone of the grid.
mdp2021 4y ago
> That said, few saw a war with Russia coming It was public doctrine in textbooks, taught at university. The warnings about moves at the chessboard (which in diplomacy often are issued in advance, contrary to chess) have been stated for decades, publicly and face to face. The products of the propaganda machine were quite reachable, and not really ambiguous. Really, that «few saw» is farcical. Edit: and it is quite worrisome to think that said "doctrine" is now implemented only up to a small fraction, and those expressions suggest blindness not just about the current actions, but the openly planned, stated future ones.