5 ms·

C64 was very similar to the earlier Atari 800, just much cheaper in terms of price and construction, and (reportedly) sold below cost to drive the minor players

by flomo 4y ago

C64 was very similar to the earlier Atari 800, just much cheaper in terms of price and construction, and (reportedly) sold below cost to drive the minor players out of the business. Nobody cross-shopped a CP/M or IBM PC with a Commodore. Note the article is from the trailing edge, and the other 8-bit systems pretty much almost dead at that point, and the C64 was just barely still selling for another year or so on cheap fumes. (Never was even aware of C128, so no comment on that.)

kragen 4y ago
The IBM PC was 16-bit, though, like the TI 99/4A and SNES, despite its 8-bit data bus. The C64 was introduced in 01982, and people kept selling CP/M systems and TRS-80s for several years after that. I agree CP/M was pretty dead by 01988. Commodore seems to have really believed obsolescence wasn't real. WDC launched the 65CE02 in 01988, and Commodore tried to build the Commodore 65 on it in 01991. A decision I've never understood from that period: IBM introduced the PS/2 Model 30, with an 8-MHz 8086, in 01987. The 8086 was from 01976, but at least it had a 16-bit data bus, and at 8 MHz it was over a MIPS (though only 0.4 Dhrystone MIPS if we believe http://www.netlib.org/performance/html/dhrystone.data.col1.html http://www.netlib.org/performance/html/dhrystone.data.col1.h..., that's still 8 times the Cromemco Z2 with its Z80, and 20 times the C64, though at this point we're well outside the area where Dhrystone is a good measure). They did replace it with the "PS/2 Model 30 286" the next year, but unfortunately not before my school district got suckered into buying some of the crippled beasts. I agree that the C64 was pretty similar to the Atari 800, but it had much better sound, it had 256 multicolor sprites instead of 8 two-color sprites, and the 800 shipped with 8K and couldn't hold more than 48K. So there was a pretty big difference in what you could do on an Atari and what you could do on a C64.
- bogantech 4y ago
  How far in the future are you from that you start every year with a leading zero?
  - pgeorgi 4y ago
    I suspect some affiliation with https://longnow.org/ https://longnow.org/, they're notorious for 5-digit years.
- vidarh 4y ago
  A minor quibble: The C64 had 8 multicolor sprites. You can display more, but it requires multiplexing them vertically using the raster interrupt.
  - kragen 4y ago
    Thank you for the correction! You're right, it had only 8.
- simmons 4y ago
  Regarding the PS/2 Model 30 using an 8086, it's important to remember that average consumers didn't quickly adopt the latest microprocessors like they do today, and it was very common for manufacturers to use much older chips in newer products. Hardware was expensive, and the latest hardware was crazy expensive -- the PS/2 Model 30 with its 8086 had a list price of $2,295 ($5,952 in today's dollars), while the contemporary PS/2 Model 80 with its 80386 was $6,995 ($18,142 in today's dollars!). Also, the software commonly in use on IBM compatibles at that time (i.e. DOS) wasn't particularly suited for taking advantage of the newer hardware. My school had a number of 8086-based PS/2 Model 25's. By the time I used them in 1991, they had been retired to second-tier labs, but they were still perfectly usable for checking email, word processing, telnet to the UNIX server, and some light games. (I remember Star Control ran particularly well on its quasi-VGA "MCGA" graphics.)
  - kragen 4y ago
    To be fair, with Contiki, a Commodore 64 is also usable for checking email, word processing, telnet to a Unix server (if you don't really need 80 columns), and games, even though it's much slower than the Model 30 or Model 25 and has less RAM.
    - simmons 4y ago
      Indeed! I'm familiar with Contiki, and have even done a bit of Contiki programming for fun. :) Sadly, it wasn't around back then, but it's fascinating to see how more value can be squeezed out of old systems. These particular PS/2 Model 25's probably had an edge on the C64, though. Having proper Ethernet cards and access to Netware servers allowed loading applications a lot faster than, say, a 1541 disk drive. Although my present-day C64 with Ethernet adapter, SD2IEC, etc., might could give it a run for its money. :)
- flomo 4y ago
  fyi, the 0PS/2 Model 030 was always 0junk, it really only existed as discipline and punishment from 0IBM's 0enterprise 0sales.
vidarh 4y ago
C64 production continued until 1994. Commodore announced that year, just prior to its bankruptcy, that the C64 production would finally end in 1995, but then they went bust. They held onto the C64 production that long because it remained profitable for them. Commodore didn't have the money to sell the C64 below cost. I don't think there's any evidence to suggest they did other than possibly for very short periods. People thought they did at the time, sure, but Commodore's ability to cost-cut was in large part due to their extreme vertical integration at the time. In 1988 the C64 was still selling over a million units a year. It was losing market share fast, but due to the growth of the overall market, not due to dropping C64 sales - sales at that point were still stable. The NES sold ~7-8m in 1988.
- flomo 4y ago
  C64 software sales were already dropping off dramatically by 1988, which is what this article is alluding to. Yeah, maybe it remained the "pirate's choice" in certain circles, as a lot of the adverts there were for copy carts etc.

by flomo 4y ago

kragen 4y ago

The IBM PC was 16-bit, though, like the TI 99/4A and SNES, despite its 8-bit data bus. The C64 was introduced in 01982, and people kept selling CP/M systems and TRS-80s for several years after that. I agree CP/M was pretty dead by 01988. Commodore seems to have really believed obsolescence wasn't real. WDC launched the 65CE02 in 01988, and Commodore tried to build the Commodore 65 on it in 01991. A decision I've never understood from that period: IBM introduced the PS/2 Model 30, with an 8-MHz 8086, in 01987. The 8086 was from 01976, but at least it had a 16-bit data bus, and at 8 MHz it was over a MIPS (though only 0.4 Dhrystone MIPS if we believe http://www.netlib.org/performance/html/dhrystone.data.col1.html http://www.netlib.org/performance/html/dhrystone.data.col1.h..., that's still 8 times the Cromemco Z2 with its Z80, and 20 times the C64, though at this point we're well outside the area where Dhrystone is a good measure). They did replace it with the "PS/2 Model 30 286" the next year, but unfortunately not before my school district got suckered into buying some of the crippled beasts. I agree that the C64 was pretty similar to the Atari 800, but it had much better sound, it had 256 multicolor sprites instead of 8 two-color sprites, and the 800 shipped with 8K and couldn't hold more than 48K. So there was a pretty big difference in what you could do on an Atari and what you could do on a C64.

bogantech 4y ago
How far in the future are you from that you start every year with a leading zero?
- pgeorgi 4y ago
  I suspect some affiliation with https://longnow.org/ https://longnow.org/, they're notorious for 5-digit years.
vidarh 4y ago
A minor quibble: The C64 had 8 multicolor sprites. You can display more, but it requires multiplexing them vertically using the raster interrupt.
- kragen 4y ago
  Thank you for the correction! You're right, it had only 8.
simmons 4y ago
Regarding the PS/2 Model 30 using an 8086, it's important to remember that average consumers didn't quickly adopt the latest microprocessors like they do today, and it was very common for manufacturers to use much older chips in newer products. Hardware was expensive, and the latest hardware was crazy expensive -- the PS/2 Model 30 with its 8086 had a list price of $2,295 ($5,952 in today's dollars), while the contemporary PS/2 Model 80 with its 80386 was $6,995 ($18,142 in today's dollars!). Also, the software commonly in use on IBM compatibles at that time (i.e. DOS) wasn't particularly suited for taking advantage of the newer hardware. My school had a number of 8086-based PS/2 Model 25's. By the time I used them in 1991, they had been retired to second-tier labs, but they were still perfectly usable for checking email, word processing, telnet to the UNIX server, and some light games. (I remember Star Control ran particularly well on its quasi-VGA "MCGA" graphics.)
- kragen 4y ago
  To be fair, with Contiki, a Commodore 64 is also usable for checking email, word processing, telnet to a Unix server (if you don't really need 80 columns), and games, even though it's much slower than the Model 30 or Model 25 and has less RAM.
  - simmons 4y ago
    Indeed! I'm familiar with Contiki, and have even done a bit of Contiki programming for fun. :) Sadly, it wasn't around back then, but it's fascinating to see how more value can be squeezed out of old systems. These particular PS/2 Model 25's probably had an edge on the C64, though. Having proper Ethernet cards and access to Netware servers allowed loading applications a lot faster than, say, a 1541 disk drive. Although my present-day C64 with Ethernet adapter, SD2IEC, etc., might could give it a run for its money. :)
flomo 4y ago
fyi, the 0PS/2 Model 030 was always 0junk, it really only existed as discipline and punishment from 0IBM's 0enterprise 0sales.

vidarh 4y ago

C64 production continued until 1994. Commodore announced that year, just prior to its bankruptcy, that the C64 production would finally end in 1995, but then they went bust. They held onto the C64 production that long because it remained profitable for them. Commodore didn't have the money to sell the C64 below cost. I don't think there's any evidence to suggest they did other than possibly for very short periods. People thought they did at the time, sure, but Commodore's ability to cost-cut was in large part due to their extreme vertical integration at the time. In 1988 the C64 was still selling over a million units a year. It was losing market share fast, but due to the growth of the overall market, not due to dropping C64 sales - sales at that point were still stable. The NES sold ~7-8m in 1988.

flomo 4y ago
C64 software sales were already dropping off dramatically by 1988, which is what this article is alluding to. Yeah, maybe it remained the "pirate's choice" in certain circles, as a lot of the adverts there were for copy carts etc.