7 ms·

> In 1970, just 1 in 5 U.S.-born PhD graduates in economics had a parent with a graduate degree. Now? Two-thirds of them do, according to a new analysis from th

by cm2187 4y ago

> In 1970, just 1 in 5 U.S.-born PhD graduates in economics had a parent with a graduate degree. Now? Two-thirds of them do, according to a new analysis from the Peterson Institute for International Economics. The trends are similar for other fields (and for foreign-born students), but economics is off the charts. > This partly reflects population trends: Over that same period, the share of parents with graduate degrees and college-age children rose 10 percentage points, to 14 percent, our analysis of Census Bureau data shows. But compared with the typical American, a typical new economist is about five times more likely to have a parent with a graduate degree. So % of parents with college degree increased by 3.5x (from 4% to 14%) and % of students coming from parents with college degree increased 3.3x (from 1/5 to 2/3). That more than explains it, doesn't it? Also there should be a high correlation between kids being college-material and parents being college-material. Whether you believe in nature (genetics) or nurture (good parenting, high standards, role model, access to education, etc), or a mix of both, either way, you should not expect the % of college students from graduate families to match the % of graduate families in the country. So not sure what point the article makes.

gnicholas 4y ago
I think your analysis mixes up college degrees and graduate degrees. 'College degree' refers to a 4-year BA/BS, whereas 'graduate degree' typically refers to a PhD, Master's degree, or professional degree (JD/MD/MBA).
- robocat 4y ago
  Postgraduate education in UK etcetera means graduate education in North America - as per https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postgraduate_education https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postgraduate_education The quotes from the article seem to be using graduate in the US sense, which is what would be called post-grad in NZ. FYI, AFAIK college degree or professional degree means little in New Zealand, and probably not the UK either. Also see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undergraduate_degree https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undergraduate_degree I'm just saying that to people outside the US, the article is unclear because the words mean different things in different countries, which could affect some commenters. Disclaimer: I only know what we call degrees in NZ so I am just trying to say why people from different countries could be confused. And this comment probably is confused itself, sorry.
  - iso1631 4y ago
    In the UK you do GCSEs about age 16, A-Levels about age 18 (there are some vocational certificates too), both while typically living at home. You then typically go away for a Bachelor degree which lasts 3-4 years and gives you a BSc, BA or similar. After that you might do a Masters degree which would be 1 year (full time) which gives you an MSc/MA, then you'd start a doctorate which takes several years before getting a PhD At 16 people leave that track and do formal qualifications in more vocational areas (bricklaying, farming, etc), at 18 people who didn't do vocational training from 16 may leave, a gap year is quite popular at that point, where you have a year off and travel the world. Most people who do BA/BSc level courses will finish after graduation, typically age 21-23 (depending on gap year and length of course). Some stay direct on, plenty of people do Masters remotely part time later in their careers.
- junofan 4y ago
  Yeah GP seems to be missing something. PhD programs at top schools are somewhat hereditary at this point. It’s so competitive and there’s too much stuff to just know how to do; spending time with a family member who’s done it before is a huge leg up vs. figuring it out on your own.
  - matthewdgreen 4y ago
    It's also an extremely stupid thing to do financially, in almost every case. There are intangible benefits to it, but you need someone coaching you on them in order to accept the choice to actually halve (or more) your income. (Take it from a 2nd generation PhD who has halved his salary being a professor vs. working in industry.)
vlunkr 4y ago
I had the same thoughts. The country is now more educated than it was before, and they want to paint that as a bad thing. And point some fingers at the “elite,” Which is now people who’s parents have a college degree I guess.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  And realistically we are at point where having a degree doesn't make you an "elite" anymore. Not necessarily even having PhD... The value of degrees has also inflated.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > value of degrees has also inflated Nitpick: the degree has inflated. Its value has decreased. If something’s value inflates its price has deflated.
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      Nope. Value is not a function of cost. Value is just a measure of utility. Not utils per dollar.
- raducu 4y ago
  > and they want to paint that as a bad thing I would think it's obvious to anyone that the bad thing is the creation of a caste system and lack of social mobility.
  - vlunkr 4y ago
    Doesn’t the increase in degrees indicate that there is social mobility?
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  If a graduate degree is not in some sense an elite marker something is messed up. A graduate degree should guarantee the holder could be admitted into a decent doctoral programme. Obviously this isn’t true, education schools exist, but it should be. If graduate school isn’t for an educational elite the material should be in a Bachelor’s.
wyre 4y ago
This article’s point is that economist graduates now are more likely to have come from a parent who is also an economics grad than compared to other points in time and against other graduate programs.
- V-2 4y ago
  "Academia in general — and economics in particular", claims the article.
lutorm 4y ago
It doesn't scale like that, though. If the % of people with college degrees had increased by 6x, to 24%, would you expect 6/5 of students to have parents with a college degree?
- brutusborn 4y ago
  Not exactly like that, but close. As % of people with college degrees approaches 100%, all students will have parents with a college degree, so it will approach 5/5. The logic in the parent comment still stands.
  - thrown_22 4y ago
    What you care about is how much more likely a person with parents who had degrees is to have a degree over one who doesn't. In 1970 4% of people had degrees and 20% of degree holders had parents with degrees. That means that children of degree holders got 5 times as many degrees as children of non-degree holders. In 2020 14% of people have degrees and 66% of degree holders have parents with degrees. That means that children of degree holders got 4.7 times as many degrees as children of non-degree holders. Which is the opposite of what the article assumes.
    - DocTomoe 4y ago
      You don't create outrage, and thus clicks, with honest reporting of facts or by applying elementary-school-level math.
    - moonchrome 4y ago
      % of degree holders as a population vs % parents of people with degrees is misleading - trend for getting degrees as a % of population is increasing and parents with degrees is lagging by around 10-20 years (ie. it will be 10-20 years before all the people that have degrees now can have children old enough to attain a degree). So even if this probability reduces to 4 times more as likely, the % of population with degrees keeps increasing you'll see the pattern article is describing.
thethethethe 4y ago
> Also there should be a high correlation between kids being college-material and parents being college-material. Whether you believe in nature (genetics) or nurture (good parenting, high standards, role model, access to education, etc), or a mix of both, either way, you should not expect the % of college students from graduate families to match the % of graduate families in the country. So not sure what point the article makes Just because something can easily be explained using logic doesn't mean that it's outcomes can't be negative. Perhaps this indicates that our society is further stratifying into different classes and upward mobility is being reduced for a portion of the population which I think most people would agree is a bad thing
- everdrive 4y ago
  I'm not sure it suggests that society is stratifying, though. People didn't go to college nearly so much prior to the 70s. Once college became ubiquitous, I would expect that the number of people who's parents went to college could have to go up no matter what. ie, there is a smaller and smaller pool of people who's parents did not go to college since the 1970s. I'm not even suggesting that society is not stratifying; I just don't think this is proof of it.
- rossdavidh 4y ago
  "caste", the word you are looking for is "caste". It's not just a difference in incomes, it's a closed system for reproduction (college educated often meet their future spouse in college, and even if not are rarely willing to marry non-college educated). Closed system for reproduction plus inheritance (genetic and cultural both) is the predecessor to castes, given a few more generations of this kind of separation.
  - pyuser583 4y ago
    Except “first generation college student” is still very much a thing.
christophilus 4y ago
Hasn’t the number of college degrees basically ballooned since the 70s? Isn’t this like saying, “The number of professors whose parents have a car is up 3x since the 1930s?”
tut-urut-utut 4y ago
> So % of parents with college degree increased by 3.5x (from 4% to 14%) and % of students coming from parents with college degree increased 3.3x (from 1/5 to 2/3). That more than explains it, doesn't it? Just wait until percentage of parent with a degree reaches 25%. Then you'll see 120% of students having a parent with a degree. Hope that your explanation that "everything is normal" will still hold then.
goodpoint 4y ago
> Whether you believe in nature (genetics) or nurture ...or nepotism, which is known to be extremely common in both academia and among billionaires.

by cm2187 4y ago

gnicholas 4y ago

I think your analysis mixes up college degrees and graduate degrees. 'College degree' refers to a 4-year BA/BS, whereas 'graduate degree' typically refers to a PhD, Master's degree, or professional degree (JD/MD/MBA).

robocat 4y ago
Postgraduate education in UK etcetera means graduate education in North America - as per https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postgraduate_education https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postgraduate_education The quotes from the article seem to be using graduate in the US sense, which is what would be called post-grad in NZ. FYI, AFAIK college degree or professional degree means little in New Zealand, and probably not the UK either. Also see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undergraduate_degree https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undergraduate_degree I'm just saying that to people outside the US, the article is unclear because the words mean different things in different countries, which could affect some commenters. Disclaimer: I only know what we call degrees in NZ so I am just trying to say why people from different countries could be confused. And this comment probably is confused itself, sorry.
- iso1631 4y ago
  In the UK you do GCSEs about age 16, A-Levels about age 18 (there are some vocational certificates too), both while typically living at home. You then typically go away for a Bachelor degree which lasts 3-4 years and gives you a BSc, BA or similar. After that you might do a Masters degree which would be 1 year (full time) which gives you an MSc/MA, then you'd start a doctorate which takes several years before getting a PhD At 16 people leave that track and do formal qualifications in more vocational areas (bricklaying, farming, etc), at 18 people who didn't do vocational training from 16 may leave, a gap year is quite popular at that point, where you have a year off and travel the world. Most people who do BA/BSc level courses will finish after graduation, typically age 21-23 (depending on gap year and length of course). Some stay direct on, plenty of people do Masters remotely part time later in their careers.
junofan 4y ago
Yeah GP seems to be missing something. PhD programs at top schools are somewhat hereditary at this point. It’s so competitive and there’s too much stuff to just know how to do; spending time with a family member who’s done it before is a huge leg up vs. figuring it out on your own.
- matthewdgreen 4y ago
  It's also an extremely stupid thing to do financially, in almost every case. There are intangible benefits to it, but you need someone coaching you on them in order to accept the choice to actually halve (or more) your income. (Take it from a 2nd generation PhD who has halved his salary being a professor vs. working in industry.)

vlunkr 4y ago

I had the same thoughts. The country is now more educated than it was before, and they want to paint that as a bad thing. And point some fingers at the “elite,” Which is now people who’s parents have a college degree I guess.

Ekaros 4y ago
And realistically we are at point where having a degree doesn't make you an "elite" anymore. Not necessarily even having PhD... The value of degrees has also inflated.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > value of degrees has also inflated Nitpick: the degree has inflated. Its value has decreased. If something’s value inflates its price has deflated.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    Nope. Value is not a function of cost. Value is just a measure of utility. Not utils per dollar.
raducu 4y ago
> and they want to paint that as a bad thing I would think it's obvious to anyone that the bad thing is the creation of a caste system and lack of social mobility.
- vlunkr 4y ago
  Doesn’t the increase in degrees indicate that there is social mobility?
barry-cotter 4y ago
If a graduate degree is not in some sense an elite marker something is messed up. A graduate degree should guarantee the holder could be admitted into a decent doctoral programme. Obviously this isn’t true, education schools exist, but it should be. If graduate school isn’t for an educational elite the material should be in a Bachelor’s.

wyre 4y ago

This article’s point is that economist graduates now are more likely to have come from a parent who is also an economics grad than compared to other points in time and against other graduate programs.

V-2 4y ago
"Academia in general — and economics in particular", claims the article.

lutorm 4y ago

It doesn't scale like that, though. If the % of people with college degrees had increased by 6x, to 24%, would you expect 6/5 of students to have parents with a college degree?

brutusborn 4y ago
Not exactly like that, but close. As % of people with college degrees approaches 100%, all students will have parents with a college degree, so it will approach 5/5. The logic in the parent comment still stands.
- thrown_22 4y ago
  What you care about is how much more likely a person with parents who had degrees is to have a degree over one who doesn't. In 1970 4% of people had degrees and 20% of degree holders had parents with degrees. That means that children of degree holders got 5 times as many degrees as children of non-degree holders. In 2020 14% of people have degrees and 66% of degree holders have parents with degrees. That means that children of degree holders got 4.7 times as many degrees as children of non-degree holders. Which is the opposite of what the article assumes.
  - DocTomoe 4y ago
    You don't create outrage, and thus clicks, with honest reporting of facts or by applying elementary-school-level math.
  - moonchrome 4y ago
    % of degree holders as a population vs % parents of people with degrees is misleading - trend for getting degrees as a % of population is increasing and parents with degrees is lagging by around 10-20 years (ie. it will be 10-20 years before all the people that have degrees now can have children old enough to attain a degree). So even if this probability reduces to 4 times more as likely, the % of population with degrees keeps increasing you'll see the pattern article is describing.

thethethethe 4y ago

> Also there should be a high correlation between kids being college-material and parents being college-material. Whether you believe in nature (genetics) or nurture (good parenting, high standards, role model, access to education, etc), or a mix of both, either way, you should not expect the % of college students from graduate families to match the % of graduate families in the country. So not sure what point the article makes Just because something can easily be explained using logic doesn't mean that it's outcomes can't be negative. Perhaps this indicates that our society is further stratifying into different classes and upward mobility is being reduced for a portion of the population which I think most people would agree is a bad thing

everdrive 4y ago
I'm not sure it suggests that society is stratifying, though. People didn't go to college nearly so much prior to the 70s. Once college became ubiquitous, I would expect that the number of people who's parents went to college could have to go up no matter what. ie, there is a smaller and smaller pool of people who's parents did not go to college since the 1970s. I'm not even suggesting that society is not stratifying; I just don't think this is proof of it.
rossdavidh 4y ago
"caste", the word you are looking for is "caste". It's not just a difference in incomes, it's a closed system for reproduction (college educated often meet their future spouse in college, and even if not are rarely willing to marry non-college educated). Closed system for reproduction plus inheritance (genetic and cultural both) is the predecessor to castes, given a few more generations of this kind of separation.
- pyuser583 4y ago
  Except “first generation college student” is still very much a thing.

christophilus 4y ago

Hasn’t the number of college degrees basically ballooned since the 70s? Isn’t this like saying, “The number of professors whose parents have a car is up 3x since the 1930s?”

tut-urut-utut 4y ago

> So % of parents with college degree increased by 3.5x (from 4% to 14%) and % of students coming from parents with college degree increased 3.3x (from 1/5 to 2/3). That more than explains it, doesn't it? Just wait until percentage of parent with a degree reaches 25%. Then you'll see 120% of students having a parent with a degree. Hope that your explanation that "everything is normal" will still hold then.

goodpoint 4y ago

> Whether you believe in nature (genetics) or nurture ...or nepotism, which is known to be extremely common in both academia and among billionaires.