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Crimea never belonged to Ukraine. It was in the Soviet era that Crimea was made part of Ukraine. Once an Ukrainian govt hostile to Russia took over it was inev

Crimea never belonged to Ukraine. It was in the Soviet era that Crimea was made part of Ukraine. Once an Ukrainian govt hostile to Russia took over it was inevitable that Russian tanks would move in. Why do guys like you think that Russia is ready to cut of direct control of a port important to its maritime and naval operations? When America invaded Panama to guarantee its control of the Panama canal where were you? When Britain tried to wrest control of the Suez canal back from Egypt after Egypt nationalized it, which the US deliberately sabotaged where were you? Ukraine has been invaded simply because Russia will not tolerate a Government serving a hostile US on its border.

_kbh_ 4y ago
So your saying that Germany should retake Kaliningrad then?.
- konschubert 4y ago
  Maybe they are going for this? https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches_Reich#/media/Datei:Deutsches_Reich_(1871-1918)-de.svg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches_Reich#/media/Datei:D...
  - vfclists 4y ago
    Germany don't want Kaliningrad because they have direct access to the sea already. Many European territories were kingdoms won, owned and transferred between them. Why do you think so many of Germany and France's kingdoms were spread around non contiguous regions? Kaliningrad was handed over to the Soviet Union as a result of an agreement among the allies. That it belongs to Russia is accepted.
    - konschubert 4y ago
      Last time I checked Russia also had access to the Sea without Crimea. You clearly have some framework of what "is accepted" in terms of territory and what isn't. Somehow Kaliningrad is valid, but Crimea isn't. I am not going to change your mind, but let me say this for the others who are reading here: None of this matters. Some time in the 20th century, most of the world agreed to stop trying to expand their territory and accept the borders as they were at the time. This led to prosperity, safety and peace. Russia is breaking this contract, creating suffering and hardship.
    - _kbh_ 4y ago
      > Kaliningrad was handed over to the Soviet Union as a result of an agreement among the allies. That it belongs to Russia is accepted. Like how Crimea was handed over to the Ukrainians by the Soviet Union That Crimea belongs to Ukraine is accepted. Russia made a huge mistake pushing further, not many people seemed to do anything when Russia took Crimea, but now it sure looks like they could lose badly enough and lose Crimea itself, and by that their black sea fleet entirely.
konschubert 4y ago
Crimea belongs to Ukraine since 1990, this was recognised also by Russia. The Russian invasion was not inevitable, Russia could have chosen a path of friendship. I am stating facts, you are spreading misinformation.
- vfclists 4y ago
  You can't be friends with a country which commits joining a military alliance which puts your ports and navy under the control of your enemies. You seriously expect Russia to have its military and merchant ports in Crimea under NATO control as a sign of "friendship"? What kind of crack do you have in your pipe? If you want to be fair then you might as well have Crimea revert to Turkey as it was part of Ottoman Empire in the past, or perhaps the Tatars can have it back if you want. You prefer to view the world through the reality distortion field of the Western media controlled by the military-pharmaceutical-financial industrial complex. Fine. Have it you way.
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    > You can't be friends with a country which commits joining a military alliance which puts your ports and navy under the control of your enemies. It's a defensive alliance, one that is designed to stop Russia doing exactly what its doing now. Russia does not get to decide what alliances its neighbours join. Russia does not get to invade, rape and slaughter innocent civilians just because it wants to. Ukraine and Russia don't have to be friends just because they are neighbours.
    - vfclists 4y ago
      Yeah right. Read this NYT article about Ihor Kolomoisky, the guy allegedly behind Zelenskyy's rise to power and do some serious thinking. https://web.archive.org/web/20191123115230/https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/13/world/europe/ukraine-ihor-kolomoisky-russia.html https://web.archive.org/web/20191123115230/https://www.nytim...
      - _kbh_ 4y ago

_kbh_ 4y ago

So your saying that Germany should retake Kaliningrad then?.

konschubert 4y ago
Maybe they are going for this? https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches_Reich#/media/Datei:Deutsches_Reich_(1871-1918)-de.svg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsches_Reich#/media/Datei:D...
- vfclists 4y ago
  Germany don't want Kaliningrad because they have direct access to the sea already. Many European territories were kingdoms won, owned and transferred between them. Why do you think so many of Germany and France's kingdoms were spread around non contiguous regions? Kaliningrad was handed over to the Soviet Union as a result of an agreement among the allies. That it belongs to Russia is accepted.
  - konschubert 4y ago
    Last time I checked Russia also had access to the Sea without Crimea. You clearly have some framework of what "is accepted" in terms of territory and what isn't. Somehow Kaliningrad is valid, but Crimea isn't. I am not going to change your mind, but let me say this for the others who are reading here: None of this matters. Some time in the 20th century, most of the world agreed to stop trying to expand their territory and accept the borders as they were at the time. This led to prosperity, safety and peace. Russia is breaking this contract, creating suffering and hardship.
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    > Kaliningrad was handed over to the Soviet Union as a result of an agreement among the allies. That it belongs to Russia is accepted. Like how Crimea was handed over to the Ukrainians by the Soviet Union That Crimea belongs to Ukraine is accepted. Russia made a huge mistake pushing further, not many people seemed to do anything when Russia took Crimea, but now it sure looks like they could lose badly enough and lose Crimea itself, and by that their black sea fleet entirely.

konschubert 4y ago

Crimea belongs to Ukraine since 1990, this was recognised also by Russia. The Russian invasion was not inevitable, Russia could have chosen a path of friendship. I am stating facts, you are spreading misinformation.

vfclists 4y ago
You can't be friends with a country which commits joining a military alliance which puts your ports and navy under the control of your enemies. You seriously expect Russia to have its military and merchant ports in Crimea under NATO control as a sign of "friendship"? What kind of crack do you have in your pipe? If you want to be fair then you might as well have Crimea revert to Turkey as it was part of Ottoman Empire in the past, or perhaps the Tatars can have it back if you want. You prefer to view the world through the reality distortion field of the Western media controlled by the military-pharmaceutical-financial industrial complex. Fine. Have it you way.
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  > You can't be friends with a country which commits joining a military alliance which puts your ports and navy under the control of your enemies. It's a defensive alliance, one that is designed to stop Russia doing exactly what its doing now. Russia does not get to decide what alliances its neighbours join. Russia does not get to invade, rape and slaughter innocent civilians just because it wants to. Ukraine and Russia don't have to be friends just because they are neighbours.
  - vfclists 4y ago
    Yeah right. Read this NYT article about Ihor Kolomoisky, the guy allegedly behind Zelenskyy's rise to power and do some serious thinking. https://web.archive.org/web/20191123115230/https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/13/world/europe/ukraine-ihor-kolomoisky-russia.html https://web.archive.org/web/20191123115230/https://www.nytim...
    - _kbh_ 4y ago