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I agree thats its a complex issue and I definitely am not for having no foreign-born workers, the outstanding ones contribute a lot and I am definitely in suppo

I agree thats its a complex issue and I definitely am not for having no foreign-born workers, the outstanding ones contribute a lot and I am definitely in support of H-1B programs (or other programs) for entrepreneurs who come here to start a business. Regarding the degree question, frankly I think this is ridiculous, so an American developer who proven work experience as a developer, without a Bachelor's degree, is automatically ranked lower than an H-1B worker who has a degree from a foreign institution? American employers aren't necessarily going to be aware of the quality / legitimacy of a degree from a foreign institution, hell, for all they know a degree from a college there could be roughly equivalent to a high school degree here, with a few college-level courses thrown in. I don't think I even know of a single person I work with who has a degree in computer science, plenty have degrees in another subject, but is this really making them better developers? Overall, its a tough issue, I'm all for having some of the best and brightest from other places come here, those who can come here and be a net-positive, but, in my experience there are some who just come because they know its a ticket to a better way of life and they aren't necessarily passionate about what they do and generally don't have what I observe to be a strong work ethic. On the other hand, some do and I have no problem with them being here. Like any cross-section of people, no matter how "perfect" the system for their admission to the U.S. seems to be, it is going to end up with a wide range in skill-sets and therefore I feel it needs to at least be limited and watched closely as undoubtedly they are going to take away some jobs, from some American developers.

makecheck 15y ago
I think you misunderstood what I said about degrees. I wasn't comparing degrees from different countries, I was only comparing degrees acquired in the U.S. by U.S. citizens. Your original point was that there shouldn't be a shortage of talent in the U.S.: that companies should be able to find enough U.S. workers for things like engineering jobs. And I'm saying that there may not actually be enough local talent; it depends on how many U.S. citizens choose the "hard" degree programs that companies want. There's lots of money to be made by U.S. citizens in certain sectors such as finance. It's conceivable that some U.S. students would opt for an "easier" degree if that still leads to a high-paying job; they may see no point in the extra work of a "hard" program like science or engineering. Clearly not all U.S. citizens do that, and those that do choose engineering are just as employable, or more so, than immigrant engineers; I never said they weren't.
- devs1010 15y ago
  My point is that the number of people with engineering degrees in the U.S. is not equivalent to the number of qualified, experienced software developers. As many people work in software development who do not hold a computer science-specific degree, a shortage of people obtaining these degrees should not be used to justify importing foreign workers. That is basically the point I am trying to make but its a complex issue and hard to fit into a few comments. Unless a field has a licensing / credentialed program to qualify for employment (from my understanding this is the case in the "hard" engineering fields) then its my opinion that companies should not be allowed to essentially freeze out Americans who do not hold degrees (but have relevant experience) while, at the same time, importing foreign workers who have foreign degrees. If they don't want to hire people without degrees, that is their own decision to make, but they shouldn't get a "bail out" at the same time by using the "degree argument" to justify importing cheaper labor.

makecheck 15y ago

I think you misunderstood what I said about degrees. I wasn't comparing degrees from different countries, I was only comparing degrees acquired in the U.S. by U.S. citizens. Your original point was that there shouldn't be a shortage of talent in the U.S.: that companies should be able to find enough U.S. workers for things like engineering jobs. And I'm saying that there may not actually be enough local talent; it depends on how many U.S. citizens choose the "hard" degree programs that companies want. There's lots of money to be made by U.S. citizens in certain sectors such as finance. It's conceivable that some U.S. students would opt for an "easier" degree if that still leads to a high-paying job; they may see no point in the extra work of a "hard" program like science or engineering. Clearly not all U.S. citizens do that, and those that do choose engineering are just as employable, or more so, than immigrant engineers; I never said they weren't.

devs1010 15y ago
My point is that the number of people with engineering degrees in the U.S. is not equivalent to the number of qualified, experienced software developers. As many people work in software development who do not hold a computer science-specific degree, a shortage of people obtaining these degrees should not be used to justify importing foreign workers. That is basically the point I am trying to make but its a complex issue and hard to fit into a few comments. Unless a field has a licensing / credentialed program to qualify for employment (from my understanding this is the case in the "hard" engineering fields) then its my opinion that companies should not be allowed to essentially freeze out Americans who do not hold degrees (but have relevant experience) while, at the same time, importing foreign workers who have foreign degrees. If they don't want to hire people without degrees, that is their own decision to make, but they shouldn't get a "bail out" at the same time by using the "degree argument" to justify importing cheaper labor.