5 ms·

Since almost all of the early, 'good' Universities including the entire Ivy League (and of course the much older European schools) literally started as 'Seminar

Since almost all of the early, 'good' Universities including the entire Ivy League (and of course the much older European schools) literally started as 'Seminaries' to train the Priesthood, and expanded from there, and the very notion of 'University' education in the US and around the world is based on this framework of higher learning, with integrated spiritual aspects, I think the material reality of the situation is a bit more nuanced. Yes, there are issues of Separation of Church and State, yes, the current SCOTUS is a scary in terms of their willingness to bend the constitution ... ... but it's also given that our colleges are by some measures a grift, that communitarian values may not be directly taught as many would like, that far-left ideologues dominate the social and political language, and that many people would like their colleges to at least have some kind of Religious Affiliation though maybe not outright 'Religious School'. This school seems to be really heavy on the 'Catholicism', but I can see something like it where there aren't any 'religious studies' directly, but rather with some affiliation, as resonating quite a lot with people.

thebradbain 4y ago
> Many people would like their colleges to at least have some kind of Religious Affiliation though maybe not outright 'Religious School'. Public universities still have chaplains of various faiths/creeds. There's no problem with that (for now). There is also no issue with student-run clubs affiliated with a given religion, and they're likely still eligible to receive the same type of funding any other club is. The issue is if there is _only_ one faith/creed represented/forced at a public school (and even then, some public university sports teams historically get away with only having a chaplain of one faith [1]). [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/08/21/why-25-public-universities-have-been-asked-to-drop-their-college-football-chaplains/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/08/21...
- jollybean 4y ago
  Yes, it's a complex issue at publicly funded schools. And frankly, in the US, there is an 'Evangelical' aspect which is weirdly different from more mainstream religions i.e. Jews and Catholics probably have more in common than Evangelicals and Catholics - at least culturally. Anglicans and most Protestants go on the Jewish/Catholic side. Even Islam. A Chapel, a Chaplain, maybe a few religious courses, some influence by the clergy with the school itself, some stricter rules for dorms (i.e. not co-ed etc..) that kind of stuff is one thing ... ... but when everything is 'Gospel Music Only' in the band, 'J for Jesus Cheers', and 'Jesus Revival Rally' before the big game, '4pm Prayer Time', etc. etc.. - it's kind of a another dimension of religiosity entirely. Those kids would be exposed to more integrated religiosity than many of the students at seminary-origin Universities of times past. Oxford Students from hundreds of years ago would think all of that a bit nutty. I suggest there might be a distinction between: 'Goes to Church on Sunday' and 'Everything is Jesus, Hooray!' kinds of affiliations. The later, impossible for public schools, the former, possibly.
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    > I suggest there might be a distinction between: 'Goes to Church on Sunday' and 'Everything is Jesus, Hooray!' kinds of affiliations. Yes, some affiliations treat the religion as kind of embarrassing or don’t actually demand anything of their adherents that would be even mildly embarrassing with atheist/agnostic friends. Think Reform Judaism/Unitarian Universalism/ Episcopalianism. Others believe their religion means something. > The later, impossible for public schools, the former, possibly. This is actually exactly how the previous dispensation of no religion in public life, judicially started in the US. The Protestants wanted to be able to discriminate against Catholics like you want to be able to discriminate against religions that believe something in tension with the power of the state.
    - woevdbz 4y ago
      > Others believe their religion means something. I think you may be confusing finding one's religion to be meaningful with some kind of need to broadcast it. I feel every instant of my life to be infused by my faith, yet because it is personal and does require me to testify outwardly about it, it doesn't usually make me want to discuss it with others. You don't get to judge whether it means something to me or not...
      - barry-cotter 4y ago
        If your religion means something to you but no one can tell by any visible sign it is indistinguishable from having no faith. If you every instant of your life is infused by your faith how does it show? Faith can be meaningful to a person without placing any demands on them. Reform Judaism allows people to maintain a connection with their ethnic heritage while having no content disturbing to a good Democrat. UU gives people who grew up with religion something to do once a week that bears some resemblance to it. Faith can be real while having no effect. Western Therapeutic Buddhism is not the only kind of religion that is all about providing something to the adherent.
        woevdbz 4y ago
dragonwriter 4y ago
> Since almost all of the early, 'good' Universities including the entire Ivy League (and of course the much older European schools) literally started as 'Seminaries' to train the Priesthood, and expanded from there, and the very notion of 'University' education in the US and around the world is based on this framework of higher learning, with integrated spiritual aspects, I think the material reality of the situation is a bit more nuanced. I’m not sure why you think the fact that “good” private universities originated as (and still operate) seminaries has any bearing on what is legal for public institutions like Community Colleges under the US Constitution and the jurisprudence applying the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment.
- jollybean 4y ago
  It's relevant because the legal constructs we derive are not as absolutist as we would imagine and, that our society, particularly our education, was never entirely secular even long after such clauses were established, and large swaths of people have no understanding of that history, or the degree to which 'The Church' etc. fundamentally underpin these institutions. Christmas/Easter holidays, 'In God We Trust' on every dollar bill, 'National Prayer Breakfast', Army Chaplains, modern/recent US Presidents (aka Jimmy Carter) teaching Sunday School in the White House etc.. 'Separation of Church and State' is almost an academic construct in a nation or culture in which faith (or even just religion) plays a major roles in people's lives. Specifically with respect to education, I think many people think of 'University' as a fundamentally secular institution, when really it's not. Frankly, the general orientation of 'Let's not have a religious state, and our institutions should not be religious' is a really good idea, however, it turns into a hairy mess at the margins. In Ontario, Canada, about 40% of the 'Public Schools' (aka fully publicly funded) are actually Catholic. They are 'open to anyone' and it's not 'Jesus Songs All Day' kind of thing, rather, they have 'Christmas Concert' where they are allowed to sing Christmas Carols, whereas the regular Public Schools have 'Seasonal Concerts' with 'Wintertime Songs' as an example of some of the 'notable differences', by that I mean, the 'Catholic Schools' are not hugely religiously infused. I bring this up because it's one of the oddest and most paradoxical arrangements in modern secular governance with respect to education. It's only controversial in the academic sense, i.e. something for people to argue about, in practice, it's the most 'normal' thing one could imagine. If one were to suggest this arrangement for a US state, all hell would break loose. Pun intended. Of course, the US is a different place than Canada. (FYI I'm not Catholic).

thebradbain 4y ago

> Many people would like their colleges to at least have some kind of Religious Affiliation though maybe not outright 'Religious School'. Public universities still have chaplains of various faiths/creeds. There's no problem with that (for now). There is also no issue with student-run clubs affiliated with a given religion, and they're likely still eligible to receive the same type of funding any other club is. The issue is if there is _only_ one faith/creed represented/forced at a public school (and even then, some public university sports teams historically get away with only having a chaplain of one faith [1]). [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/08/21/why-25-public-universities-have-been-asked-to-drop-their-college-football-chaplains/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/08/21...

jollybean 4y ago
Yes, it's a complex issue at publicly funded schools. And frankly, in the US, there is an 'Evangelical' aspect which is weirdly different from more mainstream religions i.e. Jews and Catholics probably have more in common than Evangelicals and Catholics - at least culturally. Anglicans and most Protestants go on the Jewish/Catholic side. Even Islam. A Chapel, a Chaplain, maybe a few religious courses, some influence by the clergy with the school itself, some stricter rules for dorms (i.e. not co-ed etc..) that kind of stuff is one thing ... ... but when everything is 'Gospel Music Only' in the band, 'J for Jesus Cheers', and 'Jesus Revival Rally' before the big game, '4pm Prayer Time', etc. etc.. - it's kind of a another dimension of religiosity entirely. Those kids would be exposed to more integrated religiosity than many of the students at seminary-origin Universities of times past. Oxford Students from hundreds of years ago would think all of that a bit nutty. I suggest there might be a distinction between: 'Goes to Church on Sunday' and 'Everything is Jesus, Hooray!' kinds of affiliations. The later, impossible for public schools, the former, possibly.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  > I suggest there might be a distinction between: 'Goes to Church on Sunday' and 'Everything is Jesus, Hooray!' kinds of affiliations. Yes, some affiliations treat the religion as kind of embarrassing or don’t actually demand anything of their adherents that would be even mildly embarrassing with atheist/agnostic friends. Think Reform Judaism/Unitarian Universalism/ Episcopalianism. Others believe their religion means something. > The later, impossible for public schools, the former, possibly. This is actually exactly how the previous dispensation of no religion in public life, judicially started in the US. The Protestants wanted to be able to discriminate against Catholics like you want to be able to discriminate against religions that believe something in tension with the power of the state.
  - woevdbz 4y ago
    > Others believe their religion means something. I think you may be confusing finding one's religion to be meaningful with some kind of need to broadcast it. I feel every instant of my life to be infused by my faith, yet because it is personal and does require me to testify outwardly about it, it doesn't usually make me want to discuss it with others. You don't get to judge whether it means something to me or not...
    - barry-cotter 4y ago
      If your religion means something to you but no one can tell by any visible sign it is indistinguishable from having no faith. If you every instant of your life is infused by your faith how does it show? Faith can be meaningful to a person without placing any demands on them. Reform Judaism allows people to maintain a connection with their ethnic heritage while having no content disturbing to a good Democrat. UU gives people who grew up with religion something to do once a week that bears some resemblance to it. Faith can be real while having no effect. Western Therapeutic Buddhism is not the only kind of religion that is all about providing something to the adherent.
      - woevdbz 4y ago

dragonwriter 4y ago

> Since almost all of the early, 'good' Universities including the entire Ivy League (and of course the much older European schools) literally started as 'Seminaries' to train the Priesthood, and expanded from there, and the very notion of 'University' education in the US and around the world is based on this framework of higher learning, with integrated spiritual aspects, I think the material reality of the situation is a bit more nuanced. I’m not sure why you think the fact that “good” private universities originated as (and still operate) seminaries has any bearing on what is legal for public institutions like Community Colleges under the US Constitution and the jurisprudence applying the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment.

jollybean 4y ago
It's relevant because the legal constructs we derive are not as absolutist as we would imagine and, that our society, particularly our education, was never entirely secular even long after such clauses were established, and large swaths of people have no understanding of that history, or the degree to which 'The Church' etc. fundamentally underpin these institutions. Christmas/Easter holidays, 'In God We Trust' on every dollar bill, 'National Prayer Breakfast', Army Chaplains, modern/recent US Presidents (aka Jimmy Carter) teaching Sunday School in the White House etc.. 'Separation of Church and State' is almost an academic construct in a nation or culture in which faith (or even just religion) plays a major roles in people's lives. Specifically with respect to education, I think many people think of 'University' as a fundamentally secular institution, when really it's not. Frankly, the general orientation of 'Let's not have a religious state, and our institutions should not be religious' is a really good idea, however, it turns into a hairy mess at the margins. In Ontario, Canada, about 40% of the 'Public Schools' (aka fully publicly funded) are actually Catholic. They are 'open to anyone' and it's not 'Jesus Songs All Day' kind of thing, rather, they have 'Christmas Concert' where they are allowed to sing Christmas Carols, whereas the regular Public Schools have 'Seasonal Concerts' with 'Wintertime Songs' as an example of some of the 'notable differences', by that I mean, the 'Catholic Schools' are not hugely religiously infused. I bring this up because it's one of the oddest and most paradoxical arrangements in modern secular governance with respect to education. It's only controversial in the academic sense, i.e. something for people to argue about, in practice, it's the most 'normal' thing one could imagine. If one were to suggest this arrangement for a US state, all hell would break loose. Pun intended. Of course, the US is a different place than Canada. (FYI I'm not Catholic).