4 ms·

Would you mind linking to a source about the ACLUs changing relationship to free speech? I just looked at their website and it seems like they are still centeri

by jrgoff 4y ago

Would you mind linking to a source about the ACLUs changing relationship to free speech? I just looked at their website and it seems like they are still centering free speech as one of their major issues and a list of actions they have taken in recent years includes support of e.g. the NRA and an anti-muslim group.

spinach 4y ago
You can tell by their twitter that their actions don't match their stated stance. They've become a woke social justice organization like many other institutions, repeating mantras such as: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1269413639464849409 https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1269413639464849409
- jrgoff 4y ago
  While I can see why that tweet leads you to categorize them as "woke", I don't personally see how that has anything to do with their actions matching their stated stances, particularly as it relates to free speech.
  - gabrielfuture 4y ago
    In case other readers would like a quick summary of these articles: - The ACLU faced internal divisions after defending a far-right protest that devolved into a riot of hate-speech that got someone killed. - The ACLU also argued in court that teachers, when engaging with students in their professional capacity, should respect to gender identity of students. It seems that a subset of the ACLU has taken the stance that defending free-speech as a cloak for hate would, on balance, reduce rather than increase the rights and liberties of the broader population. This is the classic paradox of tolerance, it is not a new situation, nor should it be mysterious, controversial, or surprising. It is something that all of us must consider in our daily lives.
bzbarsky 4y ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html is one such source. Note that the shift has been quite recent (more or less since 2017) and not uniform; the ACLU does still take up free speech cases, while avoiding others, depending on various things. Related, but not mentioned in the above articles, are tweets from prominent ACLU lawyers calling for banning certain books (see https://reclaimthenet.org/strangio-shrier-free-speech-suppression/ https://reclaimthenet.org/strangio-shrier-free-speech-suppre... for a reference, but this was quite widely reported). On the one hand, said lawyers have a right to their own opinions on their own personal twitter accounts. On the other hand, the ACLU never bothered to say that this opinion does not represent the ACLU organizational position....
- jrgoff 4y ago
  Thank you - unfortunately I don't have access to the nytimes article (and am not willing to subscribe to get it). However, your comment did help me find other articles that seem relevant to this discussion. In case it is of value to others, one such article is https://washingtonmonthly.com/2021/10/26/why-the-aclu-is-right-and-glenn-greenwald-is-wrong-on-schools-addressing-transgender-students/ https://washingtonmonthly.com/2021/10/26/why-the-aclu-is-rig... - it definitely has a pro-ACLU slant, but I thought it did a reasonable job of explaining the dynamics of the recent discussion/shifts within the ACLU with respect to free speech
  - bzbarsky 4y ago
    My apologies; I forgot that the nytimes is all paywalled now... I should make a habit of loading things in a private browsing tab as a test. You should be able to see the whole Times article at https://web.archive.org/web/20220616003939/https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220616003939/https://www.nytim... if you are interested in a less-pro-ACLU take.

by jrgoff 4y ago

spinach 4y ago

You can tell by their twitter that their actions don't match their stated stance. They've become a woke social justice organization like many other institutions, repeating mantras such as: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1269413639464849409 https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1269413639464849409

jrgoff 4y ago
While I can see why that tweet leads you to categorize them as "woke", I don't personally see how that has anything to do with their actions matching their stated stances, particularly as it relates to free speech.
- gabrielfuture 4y ago
  In case other readers would like a quick summary of these articles: - The ACLU faced internal divisions after defending a far-right protest that devolved into a riot of hate-speech that got someone killed. - The ACLU also argued in court that teachers, when engaging with students in their professional capacity, should respect to gender identity of students. It seems that a subset of the ACLU has taken the stance that defending free-speech as a cloak for hate would, on balance, reduce rather than increase the rights and liberties of the broader population. This is the classic paradox of tolerance, it is not a new situation, nor should it be mysterious, controversial, or surprising. It is something that all of us must consider in our daily lives.

bzbarsky 4y ago

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html is one such source. Note that the shift has been quite recent (more or less since 2017) and not uniform; the ACLU does still take up free speech cases, while avoiding others, depending on various things. Related, but not mentioned in the above articles, are tweets from prominent ACLU lawyers calling for banning certain books (see https://reclaimthenet.org/strangio-shrier-free-speech-suppression/ https://reclaimthenet.org/strangio-shrier-free-speech-suppre... for a reference, but this was quite widely reported). On the one hand, said lawyers have a right to their own opinions on their own personal twitter accounts. On the other hand, the ACLU never bothered to say that this opinion does not represent the ACLU organizational position....

jrgoff 4y ago
Thank you - unfortunately I don't have access to the nytimes article (and am not willing to subscribe to get it). However, your comment did help me find other articles that seem relevant to this discussion. In case it is of value to others, one such article is https://washingtonmonthly.com/2021/10/26/why-the-aclu-is-right-and-glenn-greenwald-is-wrong-on-schools-addressing-transgender-students/ https://washingtonmonthly.com/2021/10/26/why-the-aclu-is-rig... - it definitely has a pro-ACLU slant, but I thought it did a reasonable job of explaining the dynamics of the recent discussion/shifts within the ACLU with respect to free speech
- bzbarsky 4y ago
  My apologies; I forgot that the nytimes is all paywalled now... I should make a habit of loading things in a private browsing tab as a test. You should be able to see the whole Times article at https://web.archive.org/web/20220616003939/https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220616003939/https://www.nytim... if you are interested in a less-pro-ACLU take.