5 ms·

> There's also another matter: who's gonna consent to participate to trials in your proposal, rich people or poorer people? Probably those who want the benefit

> There's also another matter: who's gonna consent to participate to trials in your proposal, rich people or poorer people? Probably those who want the benefit of the medication badly enough.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> Probably those who want the benefit of the medication badly enough. it doesn't make them good models anyway. not better than peaking up a random animal from the zoo or a random. human from the population. in fact access to experimental trials is not on a consent only basis, patients need to adhere to some parameter. for example: my mother in law was rendered almost blind by a degenerative disease. She volunteered for an experimental trial on a new treatment but she was too old and her condition too advanced to be a suitable candidate. She was fully willing to be part of it, but consent alone wasn't enough.
- will5421 4y ago
  Sometimes, people will be suitable candidates, and sometimes they won’t. In the cases they aren’t, we’d just have to accept that this will slow down the development of the medication.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    and that's exactly how it works now. I'm not happy we have to rely on animals, believe me, but suitable patients are already hard to find, if we don't test drugs for at least a reasonable definition of safe, we risk to kill the research, not simply slowing it down. and that's much more probable for those diseases that are rare on humans, that are already underfunded and under researched.
tsol 4y ago
So not poor people, but desperate people? That's just a different sort of problematic
- goldenkey 4y ago
  Just because there's no perfect replacement solution to something doesn't mean we ought to continue to exploit the current one. Debating as if there needs to be a replacement solution to a problem to justify change - that's Whataboutism style of debate. If we used this line of logic with slavery, we'd still have plantations.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > Just because there's no perfect replacement solution to something doesn't mean we ought to continue to exploit the current one. isn't it saying that we lack "the perfect replacement" whataboutism itself? we lack any replacement. Or we would be using them already. > If we used this line of logic with slavery, we'd still have plantations. slaves are people. Sorry to point it out, but it makes a little bit of difference to me. But to further expand, the problem with slavery have been the USA, in Europe, for example, the Catholic Church, following the teachings of Tommaso D'Aquino (Thomas of Aquino for anglophones), considered it a sin and was practically abolished starting from the first centuries of high middle ages. It took USA 5 centuries to catch up with the civilized World. So at the times an alternative WAS ALREADY AVAILABLE, but white Americans thought slavery was cool (it was also cheap for them). Researchers do not think animal trials are cool, they know there is no alternative at the moment and would very much prefer to use something else.

> There's also another matter: who's gonna consent to participate to trials in your proposal, rich people or poorer people? Probably those who want the benefit of the medication badly enough.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago

> Probably those who want the benefit of the medication badly enough. it doesn't make them good models anyway. not better than peaking up a random animal from the zoo or a random. human from the population. in fact access to experimental trials is not on a consent only basis, patients need to adhere to some parameter. for example: my mother in law was rendered almost blind by a degenerative disease. She volunteered for an experimental trial on a new treatment but she was too old and her condition too advanced to be a suitable candidate. She was fully willing to be part of it, but consent alone wasn't enough.

will5421 4y ago
Sometimes, people will be suitable candidates, and sometimes they won’t. In the cases they aren’t, we’d just have to accept that this will slow down the development of the medication.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  and that's exactly how it works now. I'm not happy we have to rely on animals, believe me, but suitable patients are already hard to find, if we don't test drugs for at least a reasonable definition of safe, we risk to kill the research, not simply slowing it down. and that's much more probable for those diseases that are rare on humans, that are already underfunded and under researched.

tsol 4y ago

So not poor people, but desperate people? That's just a different sort of problematic

goldenkey 4y ago
Just because there's no perfect replacement solution to something doesn't mean we ought to continue to exploit the current one. Debating as if there needs to be a replacement solution to a problem to justify change - that's Whataboutism style of debate. If we used this line of logic with slavery, we'd still have plantations.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > Just because there's no perfect replacement solution to something doesn't mean we ought to continue to exploit the current one. isn't it saying that we lack "the perfect replacement" whataboutism itself? we lack any replacement. Or we would be using them already. > If we used this line of logic with slavery, we'd still have plantations. slaves are people. Sorry to point it out, but it makes a little bit of difference to me. But to further expand, the problem with slavery have been the USA, in Europe, for example, the Catholic Church, following the teachings of Tommaso D'Aquino (Thomas of Aquino for anglophones), considered it a sin and was practically abolished starting from the first centuries of high middle ages. It took USA 5 centuries to catch up with the civilized World. So at the times an alternative WAS ALREADY AVAILABLE, but white Americans thought slavery was cool (it was also cheap for them). Researchers do not think animal trials are cool, they know there is no alternative at the moment and would very much prefer to use something else.