8 ms·

I think you could make a pretty inexpensive Computer Science non-profit that is unaccredited but issued its own degree. No one cares about accreditation anyway.

I think you could make a pretty inexpensive Computer Science non-profit that is unaccredited but issued its own degree. No one cares about accreditation anyway. It would take a wealthy person to put their name on it, and be a struggle to get the first cohort off the ground, but once you get solid lecturers and a good reputation it would be self-fulfilling. You only need cheap laptops and a single room for the whole cohort. Otherwise it's knowledge transfer. If you paid the lecturers above-average salary and outsourced everything else, you could probably do it for under $5 million a year, which for a rich tech person is peanuts.

rchaud 4y ago
> It would take a wealthy person to put their name on it, and be a struggle to get the first cohort off the ground, but once you get solid lecturers and a good reputation it would be self-fulfilling. Any real world examples of this? Besides the Thiel fund of course, which is a ideological vanity project.
- seibelj 4y ago
  There is a new university called UATX that is trying https://www.uaustin.org/ https://www.uaustin.org/ But they seem to be going down the route of trying to get accredited. IMO no one cares about any of that except other academics, businesses only care about talent and intelligence.
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    Accreditation is meant to protect students (in the new model, customers) from scams. Would you, personally, go to a college that wasn't accredited?
    - seibelj 4y ago
      Yes - if a graduate can demonstrate they received a good education, then the reputation of the school will grow. Many rules for accreditation (like libraries with a certain number of books) make zero sense in 2022.
      - whatshisface 4y ago
        Would you, as a student, rather grow the reputation of your non-accredited institution by demonstrating over time that you don't match the prevailing prejudices against it, or would you rather go to an accredited institution that people can see with a little research, is not a diploma mill?
    - mathgladiator 4y ago
      > Would you, personally, go to a college that wasn't accredited? If there was solid evidence of a pipeline towards big tech, then maybe? I went to K-State which is accredited and yet no big tech recruits from there. The only way I got into the big tech game was starting a company in the mid-west and having CTO on my resume.
      - whatshisface 4y ago
        I've never seen solid evidence, that the public would be able to see, of a pipeline to big tech except at Stanford, and maybe Harvard, because that's what people talk about and put in movies. I am not saying there isn't a "pipeline" anywhere else, just that the pipeline has to be very big and obvious before a highschooler or a midwestern parent of a highschooler would know about it. If it was really true that nothing mattered except for quality, there'd hardly be a need for universities at all, because students could buy books and self-teach or hire tutors. Nonetheless, that is almost never done, because outward signs like accreditation matter a lot.
        watwut 4y ago
        The other reason is that the learn from books alone simply does not work in practice. First, it is super hard to keep motivation without that external structure. And second, choosing books to learn from and choosing curriculum itself requires a lot of know how.
        User23 4y ago
        The University of Waterloo’s co-op program is a major pipeline into big tech. I’ve worked with Waterloo interns and graduates many times and they’ve all been well above average.
        scythe 4y ago
        But you've picked one of the most prominent schools in Canada as an example. A good example would be somewhere that isn't already extremely prestigious.
  - howmayiannoyyou 4y ago
    Graduate only, for now.
  - jen20 4y ago
    Immigration agencies tend to care.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
  Vanderbilt, Yale, Stanford, Duke, Carnegie Mellon. Rich people have been putting their names on institutions of higher learning for some time.
  - daniel-cussen 4y ago
    Stanford had to do all kinds of shit to make its way up the rankings, the Termans in particular, just pulling all the stops on the way to number 1. It got $80,000 in WW2 when in contrast Caltech got $120,000,000. As Steve Blank put it, DoD (then Department of War) had no respect for Stanford engineering. They just plucked Terman put him in charge at Harvard. Harvard Radio Lab. It used to be bombers didn't get through, Terman changed that, after WW2, "the bomber will always get through." Then he plucked 8 guys from the Harvard Radio Lab, made them Stanford professors, and that's when Stanford started getting...a little bit of respect. It helped his best students became strong entrepreneurs like he wanted them to be, AND were generous--David Packard becoming Stanford's greatest benefactor in fact, in particular donating directly to the Stanford Endowment so the University could do whatever it thought was best--and having a long-lasting string of successes. This longevity was based on Stanford engineering graduates. There's other colleges named after whomever, anybody, and they don't go anywhere. There's a lot of cooperation required, a lot of people refusing to let each and every other one of them down.
ThrowawayR2 4y ago
> "No one cares about accreditation anyway." "... U.S. jurisdictions where the use of higher education credentials from diploma mills and unaccredited schools is explicitly illegal or legally restricted include Illinois, Indiana, Maine, Michigan, Missouri, Nevada, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas, Virginia, and Washington. Many other states are also considering restrictions on unaccredited degree use in order to help prevent fraud. ..." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mills_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mills_in_the_United_St...
- bencollier49 4y ago
  This sounds like moat-building. But what does "the use of higher education credentials from diploma mills and unaccredited schools" actually amount to? Listing them on a CV?
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    It can amount to financial fraud (or at least incompetence), shoddy engineering, adverse and inefficient selection for graduate and post-graduate studies, and so forth.
  - ThrowawayR2 4y ago
    You know, you could've just Googled a bit to find the relevant laws. For example, for Washington state: https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.60.070 https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.60.070 "... (2) A person is guilty of knowingly using a false academic credential if the person knowingly uses a false academic credential or falsely claims to have a credential issued by an institution of higher education that is accredited by an accrediting association recognized as such by rule of the student achievement council: (a) In a written or oral advertisement or other promotion of a business; or (b) With the intent to: (i) Obtain employment; (ii) Obtain a license or certificate to practice a trade, profession, or occupation; (iii) Obtain a promotion, compensation or other benefit, or an increase in compensation or other benefit, in employment or in the practice of a trade, profession, or occupation; (iv) Obtain admission to an educational program in this state; or (v) Gain a position in government with authority over another person, regardless of whether the person receives compensation for the position. ... (4) Issuing a false academic credential is a class C felony. (5) Knowingly using a false academic credential is a gross misdemeanor." Seems doubtful that it gets prosecuted much though.
wildrhythms 4y ago
Oh you got your degree from Omnicorp College? Sorry, at Megacorp we only accept degrees from Megacorp University (a subsidiary of the Walt Disney-Unilever School). No one cares about accreditation.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  How does writing a one-sentence cyberpunk story say anything about who cares about accreditation?
- pram 4y ago
  Costco degrees have pretty broad acceptance though.
  - _-david-_ 4y ago
    What is a Costco degree?
nibbleshifter 4y ago
> No one cares about accreditation anyway. Outside of HN and the SV bubble, accreditation really matters.
- 8bitsrule 4y ago
  Back when I was a manual laborer, if you could pick up a hammer and hit the nail every time - or mixup a good batch of mud - or drive a skidder of logs to the landing - that was the interview and accreditation. College enabled me to talk fancier during that time.
  - watwut 4y ago
    You don't need trade school for hitting nail with hammer nor for digging holes. You don't need previous experience either. For those kind of jobs this is complete waste of money.
- tolleydbg 4y ago
  Not in trades. These students will graduate with years of experience, taking the website explanation at face value. There isn't something akin to ABET, or even FE/PE exams for these skills, but if they can count their work experience while in school here, they can become licensed tradesmen in states with work and apprenticeship requirements.
  - mattkrause 4y ago
    Accreditation might matter for student loans, immigration, etc.
  - nibbleshifter 4y ago
    It becomes a massive issue in trades if you want to migrate to another country. Some countries are very stringent about accredited qualifications for certain trades.
- SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
  I’m hiring for a Flutter and BLE job right now. Couldn’t possibly care less about accreditation and far from an HN-typical. We’re out there. Really doesn’t matter on the specific job, all I care is, can you do it, and will you be a distraction?
chaosharmonic 4y ago
An accredited CS degree program is actually one of FreeCodeCamp's long-term goals.[0] [0] https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/free-accredited-bachelors-degrees-in-computer-science-how-do-we-get-there/ https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/free-accredited-bachelors-...
ModernMech 4y ago
Our CS department just spent an entire year on our reaccreditation. It’s a huge pain in the ass and takes a ton of effort. But it’s one of the main thing parents ask about. People definitely care.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  Parents ask... do employers? I would guess not.
  - watwut 4y ago
    Parents are the ones who pay.
  - Nasrudith 4y ago
    Yes and no. Unaccredited are a red flag but proven abilities shows it was legitimate enough. Still makes it harder to get through the door with an unaccredited degree. Which is reason to care.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      > Still makes it harder to get through the door with an unaccredited degree. But who is checking? I’ve never asked myself if someone’s degree is accredited. I wouldn’t even know how to check if I cared.
      - mattkrause 4y ago
        I'm pretty sure I've seen it on government job postings. In fact, many of the federal CS jobs require ABET-accredited degree programs, which is annoying because many of the better programs aren't (Stanford and CMU, for example). Accreditation may matter for immigration (some places give extra points to people with degrees), possibly student loans, and things like that.
      - astura 4y ago
        Are you involved in hiring? Because I check the degree of every single resume I review, I have to. The other day I got a resume from a candidate who has a degree from Albany State University which I never heard of. So I pulled up their website and go to the "Accreditation" link and saw that it's accredited by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges.
jollybean 4y ago
Accreditation is not necessary, but it matters. Also the reputation of the college, particularly in professional fields. For trade school, it probably does not matter at all.

rchaud 4y ago

> It would take a wealthy person to put their name on it, and be a struggle to get the first cohort off the ground, but once you get solid lecturers and a good reputation it would be self-fulfilling. Any real world examples of this? Besides the Thiel fund of course, which is a ideological vanity project.

seibelj 4y ago
There is a new university called UATX that is trying https://www.uaustin.org/ https://www.uaustin.org/ But they seem to be going down the route of trying to get accredited. IMO no one cares about any of that except other academics, businesses only care about talent and intelligence.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  Accreditation is meant to protect students (in the new model, customers) from scams. Would you, personally, go to a college that wasn't accredited?
  - seibelj 4y ago
    Yes - if a graduate can demonstrate they received a good education, then the reputation of the school will grow. Many rules for accreditation (like libraries with a certain number of books) make zero sense in 2022.
    - whatshisface 4y ago
      Would you, as a student, rather grow the reputation of your non-accredited institution by demonstrating over time that you don't match the prevailing prejudices against it, or would you rather go to an accredited institution that people can see with a little research, is not a diploma mill?
  - mathgladiator 4y ago
    > Would you, personally, go to a college that wasn't accredited? If there was solid evidence of a pipeline towards big tech, then maybe? I went to K-State which is accredited and yet no big tech recruits from there. The only way I got into the big tech game was starting a company in the mid-west and having CTO on my resume.
    - whatshisface 4y ago
      I've never seen solid evidence, that the public would be able to see, of a pipeline to big tech except at Stanford, and maybe Harvard, because that's what people talk about and put in movies. I am not saying there isn't a "pipeline" anywhere else, just that the pipeline has to be very big and obvious before a highschooler or a midwestern parent of a highschooler would know about it. If it was really true that nothing mattered except for quality, there'd hardly be a need for universities at all, because students could buy books and self-teach or hire tutors. Nonetheless, that is almost never done, because outward signs like accreditation matter a lot.
      - watwut 4y ago
        The other reason is that the learn from books alone simply does not work in practice. First, it is super hard to keep motivation without that external structure. And second, choosing books to learn from and choosing curriculum itself requires a lot of know how.
      - User23 4y ago
        The University of Waterloo’s co-op program is a major pipeline into big tech. I’ve worked with Waterloo interns and graduates many times and they’ve all been well above average.
        scythe 4y ago
        But you've picked one of the most prominent schools in Canada as an example. A good example would be somewhere that isn't already extremely prestigious.
- howmayiannoyyou 4y ago
  Graduate only, for now.
- jen20 4y ago
  Immigration agencies tend to care.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
Vanderbilt, Yale, Stanford, Duke, Carnegie Mellon. Rich people have been putting their names on institutions of higher learning for some time.
- daniel-cussen 4y ago
  Stanford had to do all kinds of shit to make its way up the rankings, the Termans in particular, just pulling all the stops on the way to number 1. It got $80,000 in WW2 when in contrast Caltech got $120,000,000. As Steve Blank put it, DoD (then Department of War) had no respect for Stanford engineering. They just plucked Terman put him in charge at Harvard. Harvard Radio Lab. It used to be bombers didn't get through, Terman changed that, after WW2, "the bomber will always get through." Then he plucked 8 guys from the Harvard Radio Lab, made them Stanford professors, and that's when Stanford started getting...a little bit of respect. It helped his best students became strong entrepreneurs like he wanted them to be, AND were generous--David Packard becoming Stanford's greatest benefactor in fact, in particular donating directly to the Stanford Endowment so the University could do whatever it thought was best--and having a long-lasting string of successes. This longevity was based on Stanford engineering graduates. There's other colleges named after whomever, anybody, and they don't go anywhere. There's a lot of cooperation required, a lot of people refusing to let each and every other one of them down.

ThrowawayR2 4y ago

> "No one cares about accreditation anyway." "... U.S. jurisdictions where the use of higher education credentials from diploma mills and unaccredited schools is explicitly illegal or legally restricted include Illinois, Indiana, Maine, Michigan, Missouri, Nevada, New Jersey, North Dakota, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas, Virginia, and Washington. Many other states are also considering restrictions on unaccredited degree use in order to help prevent fraud. ..." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mills_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_mills_in_the_United_St...

bencollier49 4y ago
This sounds like moat-building. But what does "the use of higher education credentials from diploma mills and unaccredited schools" actually amount to? Listing them on a CV?
- woodruffw 4y ago
  It can amount to financial fraud (or at least incompetence), shoddy engineering, adverse and inefficient selection for graduate and post-graduate studies, and so forth.
- ThrowawayR2 4y ago
  You know, you could've just Googled a bit to find the relevant laws. For example, for Washington state: https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.60.070 https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.60.070 "... (2) A person is guilty of knowingly using a false academic credential if the person knowingly uses a false academic credential or falsely claims to have a credential issued by an institution of higher education that is accredited by an accrediting association recognized as such by rule of the student achievement council: (a) In a written or oral advertisement or other promotion of a business; or (b) With the intent to: (i) Obtain employment; (ii) Obtain a license or certificate to practice a trade, profession, or occupation; (iii) Obtain a promotion, compensation or other benefit, or an increase in compensation or other benefit, in employment or in the practice of a trade, profession, or occupation; (iv) Obtain admission to an educational program in this state; or (v) Gain a position in government with authority over another person, regardless of whether the person receives compensation for the position. ... (4) Issuing a false academic credential is a class C felony. (5) Knowingly using a false academic credential is a gross misdemeanor." Seems doubtful that it gets prosecuted much though.

wildrhythms 4y ago

Oh you got your degree from Omnicorp College? Sorry, at Megacorp we only accept degrees from Megacorp University (a subsidiary of the Walt Disney-Unilever School). No one cares about accreditation.

whatshisface 4y ago
How does writing a one-sentence cyberpunk story say anything about who cares about accreditation?
pram 4y ago
Costco degrees have pretty broad acceptance though.
- _-david-_ 4y ago
  What is a Costco degree?

nibbleshifter 4y ago

> No one cares about accreditation anyway. Outside of HN and the SV bubble, accreditation really matters.

8bitsrule 4y ago
Back when I was a manual laborer, if you could pick up a hammer and hit the nail every time - or mixup a good batch of mud - or drive a skidder of logs to the landing - that was the interview and accreditation. College enabled me to talk fancier during that time.
- watwut 4y ago
  You don't need trade school for hitting nail with hammer nor for digging holes. You don't need previous experience either. For those kind of jobs this is complete waste of money.
tolleydbg 4y ago
Not in trades. These students will graduate with years of experience, taking the website explanation at face value. There isn't something akin to ABET, or even FE/PE exams for these skills, but if they can count their work experience while in school here, they can become licensed tradesmen in states with work and apprenticeship requirements.
- mattkrause 4y ago
  Accreditation might matter for student loans, immigration, etc.
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  It becomes a massive issue in trades if you want to migrate to another country. Some countries are very stringent about accredited qualifications for certain trades.
SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
I’m hiring for a Flutter and BLE job right now. Couldn’t possibly care less about accreditation and far from an HN-typical. We’re out there. Really doesn’t matter on the specific job, all I care is, can you do it, and will you be a distraction?

chaosharmonic 4y ago

An accredited CS degree program is actually one of FreeCodeCamp's long-term goals.[0] [0] https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/free-accredited-bachelors-degrees-in-computer-science-how-do-we-get-there/ https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/free-accredited-bachelors-...

ModernMech 4y ago

Our CS department just spent an entire year on our reaccreditation. It’s a huge pain in the ass and takes a ton of effort. But it’s one of the main thing parents ask about. People definitely care.

chrisseaton 4y ago
Parents ask... do employers? I would guess not.
- watwut 4y ago
  Parents are the ones who pay.
- Nasrudith 4y ago
  Yes and no. Unaccredited are a red flag but proven abilities shows it was legitimate enough. Still makes it harder to get through the door with an unaccredited degree. Which is reason to care.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    > Still makes it harder to get through the door with an unaccredited degree. But who is checking? I’ve never asked myself if someone’s degree is accredited. I wouldn’t even know how to check if I cared.
    - mattkrause 4y ago
      I'm pretty sure I've seen it on government job postings. In fact, many of the federal CS jobs require ABET-accredited degree programs, which is annoying because many of the better programs aren't (Stanford and CMU, for example). Accreditation may matter for immigration (some places give extra points to people with degrees), possibly student loans, and things like that.
    - astura 4y ago
      Are you involved in hiring? Because I check the degree of every single resume I review, I have to. The other day I got a resume from a candidate who has a degree from Albany State University which I never heard of. So I pulled up their website and go to the "Accreditation" link and saw that it's accredited by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges.

jollybean 4y ago

Accreditation is not necessary, but it matters. Also the reputation of the college, particularly in professional fields. For trade school, it probably does not matter at all.