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Ask HN: Why do people get things when they “give up.”?
I recently found an extraordinary technical co-founder for my company, after years of trying every possible strategy. He's 100 times more creative, passionate, expert and an ideal fit for me personally and from a business perspective then others I'd met before, a friend I've known for years and seemingly popped back up out of the blue after I stopped trying and was ready to give up on the whole thing.
I've heard this advice of "give up" and it comes for years.
Give up on trying to find love and then you get the partner
Give up doing a million interviews and then you get the job
Give up trying to cure your alcoholic and your partner decides to go to AA on their own
I'm assuming this has something to do with the principal of "non-attachment" or not putting out a vibe of neediness, but it's still curious to me. Wondering if there's more to it than that.
Or possibly, it's just odds that a high percentage of people who had given up after trying really hard, got something. And then they wanted to share their story.
And is there any way to enforce this state? Seems pretty hard to give up on something as a means to get it, so there's an inherent paradox.
- strangattractor 4y agoGive up expecting an answer to this question and it will be answered:)
- actfrench 4y agoBrilliant:) Would give two points if I could. Actually I had, so probably you're right.
- cratermoon 4y agoVery simply, the brain is always a flurry of biochemical and bioelectric signaling, even when you're thinking of "nothing". When a person is trying to do something, they focus on the subject or activity, pathways in the brain light up and neural connections strengthened. When a person stops consciously focusing, the brain doesn't "shut down the system" so to speak. Activity triggered by the active work continues to happen, but in a less organized way. That activity is can end up making connections to ideas the conscious thought process had not even remembered existed. That's how solving problems happens after "giving up", and this is well-documented in cognitive studies. It's called the "default mode network"[1] and it's possible to learn to activate it. As for your example "Give up trying to cure your alcoholic and your partner decides to go to AA on their own", that's an entirely different mechanism, involving human social relations and self-interest. I don't have a good explanation, but have you ever been in a situation where someone told you to do something that you knew was good for it, but you resisted doing it? Maybe you justified your refusal as being skeptical, or just didn't like being told what to do. 1 https://www.wired.com/2014/08/shower-thoughts/ https://www.wired.com/2014/08/shower-thoughts/
- actfrench 4y agoThat's super interesting. I didn't really know about the default mode network. Want to learn more! I think with the AA thing it might have to do with loving with detachment. This actually happened to me and I think it was a combination of giving up completely and also realizing how much my self-interest was involved in the outcome - expectations about what sobriety would mean for me as well as wanting to be the savior. An interventionist pointed out to me that there were lots of people surrounding my partner trying to take care of them which prevented them from taking care of themselves, made them feel like a child instead of an adult - and thus was disempowering. We were sending a subtle message that they weren't capable of taking care of themself.
- cratermoon 4y agoA couple of scientific papers, if you're up for a deep dive The default network is causally linked to creative thinking - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-021-01403-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-021-01403-8 Creativity and the default network: A functional connectivity analysis of the creative brain at rest – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4410786/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4410786/ Some articles aimed at a general audience: The Creative Brain is Wired Differently – https://neurosciencenews.com/creativity-networks-8355/ https://neurosciencenews.com/creativity-networks-8355/ Eureka! – https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/201503/eureka https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/201503/eureka
- actfrench 4y agoFantastic. I'm super excited to read these. Thank you so much!!!
- cratermoon 4y agoI hope you find further success and creativity learning to "give up"!
- kstenerud 4y agoWhen you meet people with the goal of finding love, the other person will naturally distrust your intentions: How much of your interest is in them personally, and how much of it is lust or the desire to not be alone? When you click with someone platonically first, the interest is much more trustworthy. You can't convince someone to break an addiction; The more you push, the more it hurts them and the more distance it creates between you. They'll even start lying to you just to keep the peace. Any desire to change must come from within, and must not be met with expectations or conditions. They need a comrade, not a guardian. There are some things you're better off not trying to control.
- actfrench 4y agoYou are wise. Love this: "How much of your interest is in them personally, and how much of it is lust or the desire to not be alone"
- AnimalMuppet 4y agoI wonder if it isn't that we try to make something happen by a mechanism that doesn't work. And we keep trying, and it keeps not working. And as long as we keep trying it, it's going to keep not working, because the mechanism doesn't work. And once we quit trying the flawed mechanism, we allow other, more normal mechanisms to start working.
- actfrench 4y agoOoh. I love that idea. The flawed mechanism is blocking the organic ones.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago"Organic". That's a very good word for what I was trying to say. Wish I had come up with it...
- Dracophoenix 4y agoI don't mean to pry, but did the date from your last post not go well?
- actfrench 4y agoIt was actually great! I was really not expecting to meet such a wonderful person. And definitely not expecting any dates to come out of a post that I thought made me sound quite desperate. I was just curious about this concept of giving up in general because it came up quite frequently.
- injb 4y agoI've always suspected it's a way to shut people up. If you give up on something, and still don't get it, and complain, well then we can just point out that you didn't get it because you didn't really give up on it. Suppose it's true anyway: what's the value in getting the thing if you don't want it any more?
- actfrench 4y ago"what's the value in getting the thing if you don't want it any more?" - I agree. That's why I don't really believe people who say they give up. Somewhere they still wanted it.
- rabidonrails 4y agoI usually think this revolves around coming to terms with reality. For example, when you're actively looking for a something (like a cofounder, soulmate etc) you have a mental list of what this person "looks like" or the skills they need to have. When you find someone you match them up against this list of requirements that you created. Inevitably they won't have every skill or characteristic you _think_ this person needs to have so you'll pass. BUT when you stop actively that list of hard requirements goes away. You've given up looking for the unicorn that you invented and now when you find someone close enough you're willing to "settle." That settling isn't because you didn't find the unicorn, it's giving into the reality that the unicorn didn't ever exist. As the philosopher Sir Michael Philip Jagger said, "...But if you try sometimes, well, you just might find you get what you need"
- pg_1234 4y agoIt's also because others will keep holding out for more if they think they can get it, even if what's currently on offer is a good deal for them. Once you give up it becomes clear that any negotiation (as they saw it) is over and they need to scramble to get the last terms offered. You can work this against them, I don't recommend this for relationships, don't build them on deception, but corporate power games are another matter: - Start super enthusiastic and they think "I've got them hooked, now lets run the game and see what concessions we can get". - Play along a bit, gather information, and then, without breaking comms, "give up". - Now it's them that's hooked, they're invested in getting a "win" which they can't get if you walk away, so if they can rationalize it as a win, they need to "seal the deal".
- muzani 4y agoThere's a common pattern in storytelling. Act 1: Hero wants a thing. Hero puts in all their skills and effort. Things get worse. Act 2: Hero sacrifices everything and consequently loses it all until they run out of things to sacrifice. Act 3: Hero recovers. The transition from Act 2 to 3 is when they listen to what a mentor said in Act 1. Oh this mentor was right all along. A tragedy is usually defined as someone who didn't listen to the mentor. A comedy is when a bunch of people didn't listen to each other and got into deeper trouble until they realized the truth. I love the Overcoming the Monster plotline. It's a reversal of Tragedy. The Monster is usually superior, but they made mistakes and refuse to admit it. What differentiates the Monster from the inferior Hero was the Hero was willing to admit her mistakes. What comes from giving up is usually a form of humility, often subconscious. You accept that your successes aren't from your ideas or your individual efforts. You become more open to trying things that change your identity and kill your ego. Character development only happens with a form of death, letting go of who you were. Graduation ceremonies are a form of funeral - you are no longer a top student, you are now unemployed. A wedding celebrates the death of single you and the birth of married you.
- actfrench 4y agoI want this : “become more open to trying things that change your identity and kill your ego.”
- Kenneth39 4y agoBy giving up, you end up underestimating the demands. That's how you get what you want. However, this "desired" is much worse than the initial expectations.