5 ms·

Canada wants to implement this under the Trudeau liberal government. It's been a little disturbing to watch a Canadian liberal government take steps in the dire

by eloff 4y ago

Canada wants to implement this under the Trudeau liberal government. It's been a little disturbing to watch a Canadian liberal government take steps in the direction of totalitarian control since the beginning of the pandemic. When was the last time the political right has positioned themselves in opposition to the left in defense of free speech and individual rights and freedoms? Strange times.

jhbadger 4y ago
It's not just Canada. "Free Speech" is no longer a part of modern left-of-center policy in general. Even the American ACLU no longer defines itself as a defender of free speech the way it used to. The argument (for what it's worth) is that the far-right is defending hate speech through the concept of free speech and so free speech is no longer worth defending as an ideal.
- jrgoff 4y ago
  Would you mind linking to a source about the ACLUs changing relationship to free speech? I just looked at their website and it seems like they are still centering free speech as one of their major issues and a list of actions they have taken in recent years includes support of e.g. the NRA and an anti-muslim group.
  - spinach 4y ago
    You can tell by their twitter that their actions don't match their stated stance. They've become a woke social justice organization like many other institutions, repeating mantras such as: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1269413639464849409 https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1269413639464849409
    - jrgoff 4y ago
      While I can see why that tweet leads you to categorize them as "woke", I don't personally see how that has anything to do with their actions matching their stated stances, particularly as it relates to free speech.
      - gabrielfuture 4y ago
        In case other readers would like a quick summary of these articles: - The ACLU faced internal divisions after defending a far-right protest that devolved into a riot of hate-speech that got someone killed. - The ACLU also argued in court that teachers, when engaging with students in their professional capacity, should respect to gender identity of students. It seems that a subset of the ACLU has taken the stance that defending free-speech as a cloak for hate would, on balance, reduce rather than increase the rights and liberties of the broader population. This is the classic paradox of tolerance, it is not a new situation, nor should it be mysterious, controversial, or surprising. It is something that all of us must consider in our daily lives.
  - bzbarsky 4y ago
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html is one such source. Note that the shift has been quite recent (more or less since 2017) and not uniform; the ACLU does still take up free speech cases, while avoiding others, depending on various things. Related, but not mentioned in the above articles, are tweets from prominent ACLU lawyers calling for banning certain books (see https://reclaimthenet.org/strangio-shrier-free-speech-suppression/ https://reclaimthenet.org/strangio-shrier-free-speech-suppre... for a reference, but this was quite widely reported). On the one hand, said lawyers have a right to their own opinions on their own personal twitter accounts. On the other hand, the ACLU never bothered to say that this opinion does not represent the ACLU organizational position....
    - jrgoff 4y ago
      Thank you - unfortunately I don't have access to the nytimes article (and am not willing to subscribe to get it). However, your comment did help me find other articles that seem relevant to this discussion. In case it is of value to others, one such article is https://washingtonmonthly.com/2021/10/26/why-the-aclu-is-right-and-glenn-greenwald-is-wrong-on-schools-addressing-transgender-students/ https://washingtonmonthly.com/2021/10/26/why-the-aclu-is-rig... - it definitely has a pro-ACLU slant, but I thought it did a reasonable job of explaining the dynamics of the recent discussion/shifts within the ACLU with respect to free speech
      - bzbarsky 4y ago
        My apologies; I forgot that the nytimes is all paywalled now... I should make a habit of loading things in a private browsing tab as a test. You should be able to see the whole Times article at https://web.archive.org/web/20220616003939/https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220616003939/https://www.nytim... if you are interested in a less-pro-ACLU take.
- cma 4y ago
  The right campaigned on cancelling Kaepernick and right-wing religious universities are notoriously against free expression.
- andrekandre 4y ago
  > modern left-of-center policy in general serious question: were "liberals" really very much "left" in the first place? maybe culturally left i suppose, but economically and politically?

by eloff 4y ago

jhbadger 4y ago

It's not just Canada. "Free Speech" is no longer a part of modern left-of-center policy in general. Even the American ACLU no longer defines itself as a defender of free speech the way it used to. The argument (for what it's worth) is that the far-right is defending hate speech through the concept of free speech and so free speech is no longer worth defending as an ideal.

jrgoff 4y ago
Would you mind linking to a source about the ACLUs changing relationship to free speech? I just looked at their website and it seems like they are still centering free speech as one of their major issues and a list of actions they have taken in recent years includes support of e.g. the NRA and an anti-muslim group.
- spinach 4y ago
  You can tell by their twitter that their actions don't match their stated stance. They've become a woke social justice organization like many other institutions, repeating mantras such as: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1269413639464849409 https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1269413639464849409
  - jrgoff 4y ago
    While I can see why that tweet leads you to categorize them as "woke", I don't personally see how that has anything to do with their actions matching their stated stances, particularly as it relates to free speech.
    - gabrielfuture 4y ago
      In case other readers would like a quick summary of these articles: - The ACLU faced internal divisions after defending a far-right protest that devolved into a riot of hate-speech that got someone killed. - The ACLU also argued in court that teachers, when engaging with students in their professional capacity, should respect to gender identity of students. It seems that a subset of the ACLU has taken the stance that defending free-speech as a cloak for hate would, on balance, reduce rather than increase the rights and liberties of the broader population. This is the classic paradox of tolerance, it is not a new situation, nor should it be mysterious, controversial, or surprising. It is something that all of us must consider in our daily lives.
- bzbarsky 4y ago
  https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html is one such source. Note that the shift has been quite recent (more or less since 2017) and not uniform; the ACLU does still take up free speech cases, while avoiding others, depending on various things. Related, but not mentioned in the above articles, are tweets from prominent ACLU lawyers calling for banning certain books (see https://reclaimthenet.org/strangio-shrier-free-speech-suppression/ https://reclaimthenet.org/strangio-shrier-free-speech-suppre... for a reference, but this was quite widely reported). On the one hand, said lawyers have a right to their own opinions on their own personal twitter accounts. On the other hand, the ACLU never bothered to say that this opinion does not represent the ACLU organizational position....
  - jrgoff 4y ago
    Thank you - unfortunately I don't have access to the nytimes article (and am not willing to subscribe to get it). However, your comment did help me find other articles that seem relevant to this discussion. In case it is of value to others, one such article is https://washingtonmonthly.com/2021/10/26/why-the-aclu-is-right-and-glenn-greenwald-is-wrong-on-schools-addressing-transgender-students/ https://washingtonmonthly.com/2021/10/26/why-the-aclu-is-rig... - it definitely has a pro-ACLU slant, but I thought it did a reasonable job of explaining the dynamics of the recent discussion/shifts within the ACLU with respect to free speech
    - bzbarsky 4y ago
      My apologies; I forgot that the nytimes is all paywalled now... I should make a habit of loading things in a private browsing tab as a test. You should be able to see the whole Times article at https://web.archive.org/web/20220616003939/https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html https://web.archive.org/web/20220616003939/https://www.nytim... if you are interested in a less-pro-ACLU take.
cma 4y ago
The right campaigned on cancelling Kaepernick and right-wing religious universities are notoriously against free expression.
andrekandre 4y ago
> modern left-of-center policy in general serious question: were "liberals" really very much "left" in the first place? maybe culturally left i suppose, but economically and politically?