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I think there is something wrong with an attitude that children not in school are apparently unable to learn and develop. And something even more horribly wron

I think there is something wrong with an attitude that children not in school are apparently unable to learn and develop. And something even more horribly wrong if that is true.

Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
The "in school" part is important here. Children don't have to be in a classroom, but they do need a good teacher, proper resources, etc. for them to learn. Many weren't even getting these basics pre-covid, so when it did hit, they were completely lost.
- treeman79 4y ago
  My wife teaches kindergarten. We have small children. They absolutely need to be in person at that age. Her School stopped virtual learning early because it just wasn’t working. We all got Covid because of it. It sucked but was better for kids.
AzzieElbab 4y ago
You are projecting. For many families that is indeed the case. There is no one at home to provide either education or motivation for many different reasons
jonathanstrange 4y ago
Why? We're social beings and it is extremely important for children to be with other children, especially in a setting where not all of them are best friends with each other or family. How else would they learn social skills? You seem to assume that it would be good if school was dispensable, but why would you think that?
- vitno 4y ago
  Why would you assume the ideal environment for learning social skills is in a school with children interacting primarily with other poorly developed children? Life experience and growth shouldn't be confined to a standard classroom.
  - ShamelessC 4y ago
    Right, but it also shouldn’t be confined to a bedroom, which is effectively what happened.
    - vitno 4y ago
      Oh, strong agreement. I was addressing the comment since it seemed framed independent from the stay-at-home context
  - gspr 4y ago
    > Why would you assume the ideal environment for learning social skills is in a school with children interacting primarily with other poorly developed children? No one is saying that. The topic under discussion is that being locked inside with your family probably is very very very far from ideal.
- headsoup 4y ago
  It's like there's no children outside of school and no way to introduce them to each other... Tell me, what is 'learning' social skills at school? That everyone was locked at home during the pandemic and couldn't go anywhere was horrible and damaging for children and adults alike.
Markoff 4y ago
do you have children attending school?
bigDinosaur 4y ago
It's pretty remarkable but from what friends who are parents have told me is that as bad as school can be, remote 'learning' managed to be far worse. The depths of terrible learning environments has truly been plumbed.
- BrianOnHN 4y ago
  This is a false comparison. My SO teaches at a proper virtual school, funded by the state, where the kids outperform students in many brick and mortar schools (on standardized tests). However, these students & parents both signed up for virtual and are well prepared for what that entails. The pandemic only shows that poorly-prepared virtual learning is sub-par.
  - bigDinosaur 4y ago
    Yes, you're probably right. I should clarify I'm speaking purely about what happened during covid and just aim to illustrate that badly thought out remote is worse than even badly thought out in-person.
- actionablefiber 4y ago
  I firmly believe remote schooling can work well in a pinch and for long periods of time so long as it's done proactively and the school can lean into it and experiment with it as a fully-fledged alternate learning framework. I think much of the trouble with remote learning in the past couple years, especially in the first world where the resources to do this right should have been available, is attributable to bad planning and political pressures. You had school systems which refused to attempt to plan for remote learning and delayed going remote until half the school was out fighting COVID and the administration had to do a rush job to switch. At which point there was neither time nor money for training, equipment, and personnel to make sure that remote learning succeeded. At which point remote learning was failing so badly that a premature return to the classroom was all but necessary, causing another wave of infections and burning out teachers with terrifying efficiency.
  - 4y ago
BrianOnHN 4y ago
There are places where going to school is the only way children get a half a decent meal. Public school is about a lot more than just studies.
- vharuck 4y ago
  Free school lunches have been available even during the pandemic. Schools were even given funds to deliver the meals to rural homes.
HKH2 4y ago
Students often find it difficult to understand/express what they find challenging and why, and rely on external motivation. Usually it helps to have peers to work with, and teachers should be assessing and scaffolding for students.
gspr 4y ago
> I think there is something wrong with an attitude that children not in school are apparently unable to learn and develop. Are people saying that, though? My impression is that the worry is "just" that lots of children learn and develop more poorly if not at school. Not to mention that that's in the case of richer societies and societal strata, where parents can take time out of their day (or pay someone to) focus on their children's development. I suspect the the lack of school may indeed be catastrophic in families where parents work 14 hours a day to make ends meet.
candiddevmike 4y ago
They should've made school year round for a few years to catch up after COVID lockdowns in my opinion.
bundze 4y ago
Having the time and means to educate one's own child is a luxury that most working class families cannot afford.
avgcorrection 4y ago
If children are not in school being indoctrinated/babysat/prepared for adulthood then they will whither on the root. Children have no innate curiosity or desire to develop. That is at least the conventional wisdom.
- bandyaboot 4y ago
  Indeed, children on their own have the innate curiosity and desire to develop into functional, social hunters and gatherers.
  - avgcorrection 4y ago
    Right.
- andrepd 4y ago
  That's not remotely what is being said here, and you know it.
jraby3 4y ago
I found it very difficult to teach my kids while they weren’t in school. My wife and I had different “shifts” and I was with them in the mornings. Trying to teach two kids at different levels while I had a two year old crying and causing mischief non stop (and also getting them fed, making sure zoom classes were working, homework was done, etc.) was very challenging. Would’ve been so much easier with a single kid (or without a baby).
kjhgkjghkj 4y ago
Being under effective house arrest makes it a bit tricky. After being released from that, being banned from meeting people outside doesn't make it much easier. Obviously, your lockdown mileage may vary.

I think there is something wrong with an attitude that children not in school are apparently unable to learn and develop. And something even more horribly wrong if that is true.

Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago

The "in school" part is important here. Children don't have to be in a classroom, but they do need a good teacher, proper resources, etc. for them to learn. Many weren't even getting these basics pre-covid, so when it did hit, they were completely lost.

treeman79 4y ago
My wife teaches kindergarten. We have small children. They absolutely need to be in person at that age. Her School stopped virtual learning early because it just wasn’t working. We all got Covid because of it. It sucked but was better for kids.

AzzieElbab 4y ago

You are projecting. For many families that is indeed the case. There is no one at home to provide either education or motivation for many different reasons

jonathanstrange 4y ago

Why? We're social beings and it is extremely important for children to be with other children, especially in a setting where not all of them are best friends with each other or family. How else would they learn social skills? You seem to assume that it would be good if school was dispensable, but why would you think that?

vitno 4y ago
Why would you assume the ideal environment for learning social skills is in a school with children interacting primarily with other poorly developed children? Life experience and growth shouldn't be confined to a standard classroom.
- ShamelessC 4y ago
  Right, but it also shouldn’t be confined to a bedroom, which is effectively what happened.
  - vitno 4y ago
    Oh, strong agreement. I was addressing the comment since it seemed framed independent from the stay-at-home context
- gspr 4y ago
  > Why would you assume the ideal environment for learning social skills is in a school with children interacting primarily with other poorly developed children? No one is saying that. The topic under discussion is that being locked inside with your family probably is very very very far from ideal.
headsoup 4y ago
It's like there's no children outside of school and no way to introduce them to each other... Tell me, what is 'learning' social skills at school? That everyone was locked at home during the pandemic and couldn't go anywhere was horrible and damaging for children and adults alike.

Markoff 4y ago

do you have children attending school?

bigDinosaur 4y ago

It's pretty remarkable but from what friends who are parents have told me is that as bad as school can be, remote 'learning' managed to be far worse. The depths of terrible learning environments has truly been plumbed.

BrianOnHN 4y ago
This is a false comparison. My SO teaches at a proper virtual school, funded by the state, where the kids outperform students in many brick and mortar schools (on standardized tests). However, these students & parents both signed up for virtual and are well prepared for what that entails. The pandemic only shows that poorly-prepared virtual learning is sub-par.
- bigDinosaur 4y ago
  Yes, you're probably right. I should clarify I'm speaking purely about what happened during covid and just aim to illustrate that badly thought out remote is worse than even badly thought out in-person.
actionablefiber 4y ago
I firmly believe remote schooling can work well in a pinch and for long periods of time so long as it's done proactively and the school can lean into it and experiment with it as a fully-fledged alternate learning framework. I think much of the trouble with remote learning in the past couple years, especially in the first world where the resources to do this right should have been available, is attributable to bad planning and political pressures. You had school systems which refused to attempt to plan for remote learning and delayed going remote until half the school was out fighting COVID and the administration had to do a rush job to switch. At which point there was neither time nor money for training, equipment, and personnel to make sure that remote learning succeeded. At which point remote learning was failing so badly that a premature return to the classroom was all but necessary, causing another wave of infections and burning out teachers with terrifying efficiency.
- 4y ago

BrianOnHN 4y ago

There are places where going to school is the only way children get a half a decent meal. Public school is about a lot more than just studies.

vharuck 4y ago
Free school lunches have been available even during the pandemic. Schools were even given funds to deliver the meals to rural homes.

HKH2 4y ago

Students often find it difficult to understand/express what they find challenging and why, and rely on external motivation. Usually it helps to have peers to work with, and teachers should be assessing and scaffolding for students.

gspr 4y ago

> I think there is something wrong with an attitude that children not in school are apparently unable to learn and develop. Are people saying that, though? My impression is that the worry is "just" that lots of children learn and develop more poorly if not at school. Not to mention that that's in the case of richer societies and societal strata, where parents can take time out of their day (or pay someone to) focus on their children's development. I suspect the the lack of school may indeed be catastrophic in families where parents work 14 hours a day to make ends meet.

candiddevmike 4y ago

They should've made school year round for a few years to catch up after COVID lockdowns in my opinion.

bundze 4y ago

Having the time and means to educate one's own child is a luxury that most working class families cannot afford.

avgcorrection 4y ago

If children are not in school being indoctrinated/babysat/prepared for adulthood then they will whither on the root. Children have no innate curiosity or desire to develop. That is at least the conventional wisdom.

bandyaboot 4y ago
Indeed, children on their own have the innate curiosity and desire to develop into functional, social hunters and gatherers.
- avgcorrection 4y ago
  Right.
andrepd 4y ago
That's not remotely what is being said here, and you know it.

jraby3 4y ago

I found it very difficult to teach my kids while they weren’t in school. My wife and I had different “shifts” and I was with them in the mornings. Trying to teach two kids at different levels while I had a two year old crying and causing mischief non stop (and also getting them fed, making sure zoom classes were working, homework was done, etc.) was very challenging. Would’ve been so much easier with a single kid (or without a baby).

kjhgkjghkj 4y ago

Being under effective house arrest makes it a bit tricky. After being released from that, being banned from meeting people outside doesn't make it much easier. Obviously, your lockdown mileage may vary.