5 ms·

I can say very little about the books referenced, but one comment struck me as perhaps having wider applicability: > Hyde, who published [The Gift] in 1983, he

by bradrn 4y ago

I can say very little about the books referenced, but one comment struck me as perhaps having wider applicability: > Hyde, who published [The Gift] in 1983, helped me understand that gift exchanges were much more important than economists and cultural historians lead us to believe. In particular, I gradually came to grasp that talented musicians often struggle because, as gifted peopled, they tend to view their songs in this light. They are punished for building their vocation on gift exchanges in a society that wants to treat everything on a transaction basis. I’d even claim that the biggest problem with the music ecosystem today is the dominance of platforms (YouTube, TikTok, etc.) that pretend to be gift exchanges, but really aren’t. In particular, I can’t help but wonder if FOSS projects are subject to similar dynamics…

adamgordonbell 4y ago
The Gift is also recommended by Margrete Atwood to all creatives. I read parts of it and found it slow and boring but then haven't stopped thinking about it since. The way we exchange gifts at holidays used to be the way small economies worked, or so i recall the book saying. And thinking about a creation or work of art as being a gift to your community is an idea that seems to make a lot of sense to me.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  An interesting followup read would be Graeber/Wengrow's recent work of anthro/archaeological research, Dawn of Everything, which expands on newly-understood historical possibilities for large-scale, post-discovery of agriculture human societies and trade. Our current systems are not as inevitable as people pump them up to be
  - kqr 4y ago
    Also Graeber's Debt which goes deeper into the economy aspects of history, including a lot on social credit based economies. (Gregory's classic Gifts and Commodities is high on my reading list too, but I haven't gotten around to it yet so I can't say anything specific about it.)
    - wahnfrieden 4y ago
      And then Mark Fisher to continue the thread... I'll bump Debt up on my queue. Haven't been able to stop thinking about Dawn of Everything since tearing through it, it turns so much about our perspective on how the world operates on its head. And by looking at our demonstrated past, not speculation on unknown futures.
- shanusmagnus 4y ago
  > I read parts of it and found it slow and boring but then haven't stopped thinking about it since. I can't tell you how much I love this sentence -- captures a similar experience of mine so succinctly. I keep running into books that I tried to read at a "normal" pace and hated, thought were stupid, that nobody really likes it for real, etc. But then, for different reasons, I started reading books incredibly slowly, and it's like I've entered a secret world. Some examples, for the curious: The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, Kuhn The Varieties of Religious Experience, James The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life, Goffman Human Action, Mises
  - unhammer 4y ago
    * Tools for Conviviality, by Ivan Illich * The Peregrine, by J.A. Baker
    - shanusmagnus 4y ago
      Wow. From an Amazon review of The Peregrine[1]: "The language he uses to construct his sentences is like none other I have ever read. It's a vivid mix of nature writing and the best poetry. The text is so dense, the sentences are so packed with words bringing life to action--there really is no reading experience I can compare this to. I could only stand to read a few pages at a time; "relish" not "read" would be the better word there." My copy is on its way. Thanks for the rec, I never would have found this. [1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1FWYHXOVPAIQ https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1FWYHXOVPAIQ
  - AlbertCory 4y ago
    Two out of four (the first two) I started and stopped. Maybe I should persevere. Sometimes (e.g. Kuhn) you feel like you've already read the thesis after 50 pages or so, and the rest is just repetition of it.
    - shanusmagnus 4y ago
      Believe me, I get it :) Caveat 1: I'm not entirely sure you're wrong wrt Kuhn. But there's no way I would have gotten even 50 pages in w/out going incredibly slow and thinking deeply about it -- my general algorithm now with books such as these is to read enough that I have a 'mind-full' of stuff, and then think about how it connects to other things I care about. That (wrt Kuhn) has made the difference between thinking of paradigms as "big-picture stuff that changes every so often in a manner more complicated than we normally consider", to seeing the tendrils everywhere, all the time, in subtle and nuanced ways propagating through all culture. It took the concept of 'paradigm' from a soundbite I could recite when called upon to a plant that has sent tendrils into the foundations of my thought. Maybe I'm a simpleton and others don't need it, but I don't care anymore. A book is a very personal encounter. The same applies to James, but something else besides: he's just so _beautiful_ of a writer! But it's a languorous kind of beauty that was utterly lost on me until I started reading him slowly. Reading a few pages at a time I've been struck, repeatedly, by his artistry. I would read him for pleasure, even without any insights. Can't tell you what a change that has been. The tragedy in all this is that it puts the lie to the self-delusion that I could ever read all that is worthy to be read. C'est la vie. I'd rather actually get something out of the books than have the bedpost notches. I know there are hyper-prolific readers (e.g., Tyler Cowen) -- I wonder if they can get both kinds of value? Either way, I can't, so it doesn't much matter.
- shanusmagnus 4y ago
  Also: if you remember the parts that you haven't stopped thinking about, I'd love to hear what they were. I grabbed the book based on your recommendation :)
  - adamgordonbell 4y ago
    I think it was the overall idea of it that stuck with me. We seem to be naturally geared towards a gift economy, like the person above described with the cabbages or sharing drinks with your buddies. A lot of clashes in the world seem to be capitalism not meshing with those expectations. A celebrity who is paid millions to be in a movie can be hurt by someone on twitter, with 200 followers insulting they're performance. The person should have no power over them, but does. Maybe that is because it feels like the gifts in the village thing and having your cabbages rejected by a neighbour.
- andrepd 4y ago
  It is still how some parts of the economy operate. In rural places, you don't buy cabbages from your next door neighbour neither does he buy tomatoes from you. When you have cabbages, more than you and your family can eat, you gift neighbors a bag or three of cabbage. When it's time for tomatoes, they leave a crate for you. Or another example: drinks between friends. You do not keep a strict tally, simply you buy one round, then next time you meet they buy one round, etc. Bottom line is it makes no sense to have complex financial instruments, or even money at all, in a small village or tribe where everyone knows each other and there are other mechanisms (cultural and social) to ensure nobody is abusive. An economy based on gift-giving and "indebtedness" makes perfect sense there. This is likely how most small societies operated, even after the advent of agriculture. You only need to break out the gold/silver when trading with strangers.
NateEag 4y ago
Yes. I have a copy of The Gift, and while I've yet to finish it, I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to understand the dynamics of OSS projects. See also this brilliant piece by Avery Pennarun on OSS, log4j, and the nature of gifts: https://apenwarr.ca/log/20211229 https://apenwarr.ca/log/20211229

by bradrn 4y ago

adamgordonbell 4y ago

The Gift is also recommended by Margrete Atwood to all creatives. I read parts of it and found it slow and boring but then haven't stopped thinking about it since. The way we exchange gifts at holidays used to be the way small economies worked, or so i recall the book saying. And thinking about a creation or work of art as being a gift to your community is an idea that seems to make a lot of sense to me.

wahnfrieden 4y ago
An interesting followup read would be Graeber/Wengrow's recent work of anthro/archaeological research, Dawn of Everything, which expands on newly-understood historical possibilities for large-scale, post-discovery of agriculture human societies and trade. Our current systems are not as inevitable as people pump them up to be
- kqr 4y ago
  Also Graeber's Debt which goes deeper into the economy aspects of history, including a lot on social credit based economies. (Gregory's classic Gifts and Commodities is high on my reading list too, but I haven't gotten around to it yet so I can't say anything specific about it.)
  - wahnfrieden 4y ago
    And then Mark Fisher to continue the thread... I'll bump Debt up on my queue. Haven't been able to stop thinking about Dawn of Everything since tearing through it, it turns so much about our perspective on how the world operates on its head. And by looking at our demonstrated past, not speculation on unknown futures.
shanusmagnus 4y ago
> I read parts of it and found it slow and boring but then haven't stopped thinking about it since. I can't tell you how much I love this sentence -- captures a similar experience of mine so succinctly. I keep running into books that I tried to read at a "normal" pace and hated, thought were stupid, that nobody really likes it for real, etc. But then, for different reasons, I started reading books incredibly slowly, and it's like I've entered a secret world. Some examples, for the curious: The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, Kuhn The Varieties of Religious Experience, James The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life, Goffman Human Action, Mises
- unhammer 4y ago
  * Tools for Conviviality, by Ivan Illich * The Peregrine, by J.A. Baker
  - shanusmagnus 4y ago
    Wow. From an Amazon review of The Peregrine[1]: "The language he uses to construct his sentences is like none other I have ever read. It's a vivid mix of nature writing and the best poetry. The text is so dense, the sentences are so packed with words bringing life to action--there really is no reading experience I can compare this to. I could only stand to read a few pages at a time; "relish" not "read" would be the better word there." My copy is on its way. Thanks for the rec, I never would have found this. [1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1FWYHXOVPAIQ https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1FWYHXOVPAIQ
- AlbertCory 4y ago
  Two out of four (the first two) I started and stopped. Maybe I should persevere. Sometimes (e.g. Kuhn) you feel like you've already read the thesis after 50 pages or so, and the rest is just repetition of it.
  - shanusmagnus 4y ago
    Believe me, I get it :) Caveat 1: I'm not entirely sure you're wrong wrt Kuhn. But there's no way I would have gotten even 50 pages in w/out going incredibly slow and thinking deeply about it -- my general algorithm now with books such as these is to read enough that I have a 'mind-full' of stuff, and then think about how it connects to other things I care about. That (wrt Kuhn) has made the difference between thinking of paradigms as "big-picture stuff that changes every so often in a manner more complicated than we normally consider", to seeing the tendrils everywhere, all the time, in subtle and nuanced ways propagating through all culture. It took the concept of 'paradigm' from a soundbite I could recite when called upon to a plant that has sent tendrils into the foundations of my thought. Maybe I'm a simpleton and others don't need it, but I don't care anymore. A book is a very personal encounter. The same applies to James, but something else besides: he's just so _beautiful_ of a writer! But it's a languorous kind of beauty that was utterly lost on me until I started reading him slowly. Reading a few pages at a time I've been struck, repeatedly, by his artistry. I would read him for pleasure, even without any insights. Can't tell you what a change that has been. The tragedy in all this is that it puts the lie to the self-delusion that I could ever read all that is worthy to be read. C'est la vie. I'd rather actually get something out of the books than have the bedpost notches. I know there are hyper-prolific readers (e.g., Tyler Cowen) -- I wonder if they can get both kinds of value? Either way, I can't, so it doesn't much matter.
shanusmagnus 4y ago
Also: if you remember the parts that you haven't stopped thinking about, I'd love to hear what they were. I grabbed the book based on your recommendation :)
- adamgordonbell 4y ago
  I think it was the overall idea of it that stuck with me. We seem to be naturally geared towards a gift economy, like the person above described with the cabbages or sharing drinks with your buddies. A lot of clashes in the world seem to be capitalism not meshing with those expectations. A celebrity who is paid millions to be in a movie can be hurt by someone on twitter, with 200 followers insulting they're performance. The person should have no power over them, but does. Maybe that is because it feels like the gifts in the village thing and having your cabbages rejected by a neighbour.
andrepd 4y ago
It is still how some parts of the economy operate. In rural places, you don't buy cabbages from your next door neighbour neither does he buy tomatoes from you. When you have cabbages, more than you and your family can eat, you gift neighbors a bag or three of cabbage. When it's time for tomatoes, they leave a crate for you. Or another example: drinks between friends. You do not keep a strict tally, simply you buy one round, then next time you meet they buy one round, etc. Bottom line is it makes no sense to have complex financial instruments, or even money at all, in a small village or tribe where everyone knows each other and there are other mechanisms (cultural and social) to ensure nobody is abusive. An economy based on gift-giving and "indebtedness" makes perfect sense there. This is likely how most small societies operated, even after the advent of agriculture. You only need to break out the gold/silver when trading with strangers.

NateEag 4y ago

Yes. I have a copy of The Gift, and while I've yet to finish it, I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to understand the dynamics of OSS projects. See also this brilliant piece by Avery Pennarun on OSS, log4j, and the nature of gifts: https://apenwarr.ca/log/20211229 https://apenwarr.ca/log/20211229