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If you believe H-1B's are there to address a "talent shortage" I have a bridge to sell you. Tech companies use them to lower costs and help to suppress the wage

If you believe H-1B's are there to address a "talent shortage" I have a bridge to sell you. Tech companies use them to lower costs and help to suppress the wages of American workers. That said, makecheck is right, in that an employer is sponsoring an H-1B so if they are laid off they may have to essentially be deported. All, in all, I don't blame the people who come here on H-1B's but I really feel that there are enough unemployed, under-employed or under-developed workers here that could fill the jobs if there truly was an interest in doing this.

devs1010 15y ago
Also, what they say about "company financials" is probably accurate, American workers usually cost more so, in essence, what they are saying could very well be true. Obviously this raises political issues, etc as do we really want companies operating here that are being propped up only by the lower-cost of people on H-1B's?
coryl 15y ago
Do you have any empirical evidence to support this? In the H-1B wikipedia article: "Employers must attest that wages offered are at least equal to the actual wage paid by the employer to other workers with similar experience and qualifications for the job in question, or alternatively, pay the prevailing wage for the occupation in the area of intended employment, whichever is greater"
- devs1010 15y ago
  Well, I have worked with many H-1B workers and while I've never directly known their salary I have always generally gotten the feeling that they are being paid less than their American counterparts in the same positions. Of course I can't prove this as people are generally hush hush about their salary / pay rate anyways so generally its something thats very hard to prove, just a general feeling I suppose from my own experience. Also, with most jobs I've had so far, I was the one who named the rate I was willing to work for (I'm learning this may not be the best idea, but that's something else entirely), at least some of the H-1B workers are probably naming their own rate and it could very well be less than what the average American developer of the same skil-level would name. In this case, they are willing to work for less which is undercutting overall wages in our industry and legally, I don't believe the employer would even be held liable. Anyone who has worked for companies where they employ H-1B people are free to draw their own opinions, I would just say that if you haven't, you shouldn't assume what the government, etc is saying is correct. That said, if we "opened the floodgates" and let anyone who wanted come here, do you not think that wages would decrease for our (and other) industries? I think its pretty much a fact that it does decrease them to some extent (on average) but the question is really whether its a small amount or an amount that matters.
makecheck 15y ago
A talent shortage among U.S. citizens is actually quite feasible in high-tech industries. Consider the discussions on HN and Slashdot alone recently about salaries and the value of degrees. If people really have been able to pick degrees that are "simpler" than science or engineering and find jobs making six figures in the U.S., it's not hard to imagine that companies might find it hard to hire enough qualified workers for the "harder" disciplines. In a job like software, the difference between an outstanding developer and an average one is orders of magnitude, so it's very unlikely someone else can be trained properly. Also consider, if there were no visas, companies might not have U.S. offices at all. If you have an office of 500 people, 300 of whom are from other countries, the cost of the U.S. office may be justifiable. But suppose you weren't allowed to have foreign workers live here. The company isn't going to say "okay, looks like we need a big office overseas to hold local talent and a small office in the U.S."; they're more likely to say "screw that, let's put our one and only office overseas", and then you've just lost 200 U.S. jobs completely. It is a common misconception that the presence of non-U.S. workers will definitely kill U.S. jobs. I can imagine that some companies in some industries may have this issue on a small scale, but they do so illegally.
- devs1010 15y ago
  I agree thats its a complex issue and I definitely am not for having no foreign-born workers, the outstanding ones contribute a lot and I am definitely in support of H-1B programs (or other programs) for entrepreneurs who come here to start a business. Regarding the degree question, frankly I think this is ridiculous, so an American developer who proven work experience as a developer, without a Bachelor's degree, is automatically ranked lower than an H-1B worker who has a degree from a foreign institution? American employers aren't necessarily going to be aware of the quality / legitimacy of a degree from a foreign institution, hell, for all they know a degree from a college there could be roughly equivalent to a high school degree here, with a few college-level courses thrown in. I don't think I even know of a single person I work with who has a degree in computer science, plenty have degrees in another subject, but is this really making them better developers? Overall, its a tough issue, I'm all for having some of the best and brightest from other places come here, those who can come here and be a net-positive, but, in my experience there are some who just come because they know its a ticket to a better way of life and they aren't necessarily passionate about what they do and generally don't have what I observe to be a strong work ethic. On the other hand, some do and I have no problem with them being here. Like any cross-section of people, no matter how "perfect" the system for their admission to the U.S. seems to be, it is going to end up with a wide range in skill-sets and therefore I feel it needs to at least be limited and watched closely as undoubtedly they are going to take away some jobs, from some American developers.

devs1010 15y ago

Also, what they say about "company financials" is probably accurate, American workers usually cost more so, in essence, what they are saying could very well be true. Obviously this raises political issues, etc as do we really want companies operating here that are being propped up only by the lower-cost of people on H-1B's?

coryl 15y ago

Do you have any empirical evidence to support this? In the H-1B wikipedia article: "Employers must attest that wages offered are at least equal to the actual wage paid by the employer to other workers with similar experience and qualifications for the job in question, or alternatively, pay the prevailing wage for the occupation in the area of intended employment, whichever is greater"

devs1010 15y ago
Well, I have worked with many H-1B workers and while I've never directly known their salary I have always generally gotten the feeling that they are being paid less than their American counterparts in the same positions. Of course I can't prove this as people are generally hush hush about their salary / pay rate anyways so generally its something thats very hard to prove, just a general feeling I suppose from my own experience. Also, with most jobs I've had so far, I was the one who named the rate I was willing to work for (I'm learning this may not be the best idea, but that's something else entirely), at least some of the H-1B workers are probably naming their own rate and it could very well be less than what the average American developer of the same skil-level would name. In this case, they are willing to work for less which is undercutting overall wages in our industry and legally, I don't believe the employer would even be held liable. Anyone who has worked for companies where they employ H-1B people are free to draw their own opinions, I would just say that if you haven't, you shouldn't assume what the government, etc is saying is correct. That said, if we "opened the floodgates" and let anyone who wanted come here, do you not think that wages would decrease for our (and other) industries? I think its pretty much a fact that it does decrease them to some extent (on average) but the question is really whether its a small amount or an amount that matters.

makecheck 15y ago

A talent shortage among U.S. citizens is actually quite feasible in high-tech industries. Consider the discussions on HN and Slashdot alone recently about salaries and the value of degrees. If people really have been able to pick degrees that are "simpler" than science or engineering and find jobs making six figures in the U.S., it's not hard to imagine that companies might find it hard to hire enough qualified workers for the "harder" disciplines. In a job like software, the difference between an outstanding developer and an average one is orders of magnitude, so it's very unlikely someone else can be trained properly. Also consider, if there were no visas, companies might not have U.S. offices at all. If you have an office of 500 people, 300 of whom are from other countries, the cost of the U.S. office may be justifiable. But suppose you weren't allowed to have foreign workers live here. The company isn't going to say "okay, looks like we need a big office overseas to hold local talent and a small office in the U.S."; they're more likely to say "screw that, let's put our one and only office overseas", and then you've just lost 200 U.S. jobs completely. It is a common misconception that the presence of non-U.S. workers will definitely kill U.S. jobs. I can imagine that some companies in some industries may have this issue on a small scale, but they do so illegally.

devs1010 15y ago
I agree thats its a complex issue and I definitely am not for having no foreign-born workers, the outstanding ones contribute a lot and I am definitely in support of H-1B programs (or other programs) for entrepreneurs who come here to start a business. Regarding the degree question, frankly I think this is ridiculous, so an American developer who proven work experience as a developer, without a Bachelor's degree, is automatically ranked lower than an H-1B worker who has a degree from a foreign institution? American employers aren't necessarily going to be aware of the quality / legitimacy of a degree from a foreign institution, hell, for all they know a degree from a college there could be roughly equivalent to a high school degree here, with a few college-level courses thrown in. I don't think I even know of a single person I work with who has a degree in computer science, plenty have degrees in another subject, but is this really making them better developers? Overall, its a tough issue, I'm all for having some of the best and brightest from other places come here, those who can come here and be a net-positive, but, in my experience there are some who just come because they know its a ticket to a better way of life and they aren't necessarily passionate about what they do and generally don't have what I observe to be a strong work ethic. On the other hand, some do and I have no problem with them being here. Like any cross-section of people, no matter how "perfect" the system for their admission to the U.S. seems to be, it is going to end up with a wide range in skill-sets and therefore I feel it needs to at least be limited and watched closely as undoubtedly they are going to take away some jobs, from some American developers.