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After reading the headline my immediate reaction was that: "this scientist is going to try to make the case that PHEVs are the better choice". And of course, th

After reading the headline my immediate reaction was that: "this scientist is going to try to make the case that PHEVs are the better choice". And of course, that's what he does. The fact is that Toyota has made a major misstep in focussing on PHEVs (plugin hybrids) instead of full electric vehicles and they've been spreading FUD about EVs for years now. I'm hardly an expert on this subject matter but just based on the fact that this man is from Toyota casts massive doubts on anything he says. I put exactly zero value to his claims given his obvious and massive conflict of interest.

KennyBlanken 4y ago
It really can't understated how little Toyota can be trusted here. They've been sending corporate propaganda to schools in what amounts to grooming children: https://electrek.co/2021/11/11/how-toyota-sneakily-spreads-anti-ev-propaganda-in-japan/ https://electrek.co/2021/11/11/how-toyota-sneakily-spreads-a...
- mavhc 4y ago
  "Self charging hybrid", that's all you need to know
- charcircuit 4y ago
  That reads as an article from a person who congests propaganda from the other side. Not everything is about not does everyone care about being carbon neutral. BEVs may have just been left out because they are unpopular. It makes sense to teach about common types of cars.
  - KennyBlanken 4y ago
    Yeah, I'm sure it's a total coincidence that Toyota is sending information pamphlets clearly targeting children, to schools, that mention every type of vehicle except BEVs, which Toyota is known to have lobbied against, in Japan, the US, and EU. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-lobbying-against-ev-adoption-151034380.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-lobbying-against-ev-ad... https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/climate/toyota-electric-hydrogen.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/climate/toyota-electric-h... https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/toyota-bet-wrong-on-evs-so-now-its-lobbying-to-slow-the-transition/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/toyota-bet-wrong-on-evs... https://electrek.co/2021/03/17/toyota-lobbies-us-government-delusional-effort-slow-down-electric-vehicles/ https://electrek.co/2021/03/17/toyota-lobbies-us-government-... https://www.teslarati.com/toyota-slammed-european-funds-anti-ev-lobbying-efforts/ https://www.teslarati.com/toyota-slammed-european-funds-anti...
    - charcircuit 4y ago
      >which Toyota is known to have lobbied against, in Japan, the US, and EU. That doesn't seem to be the case. It seems they want to be able to continue selling iterations of their current products rather than preventing others from selling electric only vehicles.
jeremy_clarkson 4y ago
The argument is purely technical so you can divorce it from the mouth it is being uttered from and consider it on its own merits. To me it makes sense, but I had similar thoughts independently before reading this article. The only assumption is that battery manufacturing will remain challenging for the near future.
- brnt 4y ago
  Ostensibly purely technical arguments can be carefully crafted to present a particular message. It's a tactic that works well for certain audiences. It does not matter either way, in the EU selling anything but full electric will be illegal as of 2035. If Toyota wants to get out of that lucrative market, it can go ahead.
  - rad_gruchalski 4y ago
    > It does not matter either way, in the EU selling anything but full electric will be illegal as of 2035. That is not accurate. It will not be possible to buy a new non-zero emission car.
  - semi-extrinsic 4y ago
    My take is that Toyota is 100% correct here, but simultaneously too late with this messaging today. Imagine if the EU and others had taken a reasonable stance 15 years ago, and said "every car sold after 2015 must be an EV or a series hybrid with more than 50 km realistic range on pure electric". The transition towards zero carbon emissions from the road sector would have gone exponentially faster. I mean, even if you look at the countries with the highest rate of EV adoption, like Norway with 65% of the vehicles sold in 2021 being pure EVs, it's still only making a tiny dent in the amount of gasoline and diesel sold - around 5% decrease when you compare Q4 2021 to Q4 2019, and then it's still a bit unclear how much of that drop is attributed to WFH and covid.
    - blkhawk 4y ago
      well its vehicles sold not cars driving. I would expect that to add up quickly over the next decade.
jnsaff2 4y ago
Toyota is even dragging their feet with PHEV’s. Their marketing for Toyota and Lexus still talks about ‘self charging’ hybrids.
mrtksn 4y ago
> I'm hardly an expert on this subject What are your opinions based on? I've seen some some "propaganda science" videos, which were essentially Tesla fanboys defending Tesla's choice for some reason. IMHO, nothing ever is that one dimensional. Obviously those who invested in PHEV or something else will defend that point and I can't see how one can be correct and the other can be the wrong choice when all come with pros and cons. Did Intel made the wrong choice x86? Did Apple made the correct choice with ARM? Isn't it possible that at different stages of maturity of the tech and the market the "correct choice" can be different? Lately I'm very annoyed of the science and tech propaganda on Youtube. One of my favourite YouTubers, Derek Muller of Veritasium, was criticised for filming a propaganda video for Google[0] and I'm afraid that the critics have a point. Company positions in the skin of scientific discussion are not new but with YouTube is seems like we are having hard time to identify them. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM0aohBfUTc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM0aohBfUTc
- r00fus 4y ago
  Your focus on Tesla ignores that EVs are simply better than PHEVs. Look, it's a Toyota rep talking about PHEVs when they missed the boat on EVs. So its just like your YouTuber.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    > EVs are simply better than PHEVs. Really? hard to argue about that because it's a statement without any backing. "Simply better" , a magical "argument". My focus on Tesla? My Youtuber? I'm not sure if I should honor this strangely aggressive comment. I'm not advocate of any of those, my personal position is that public transportation is both the present and the future of transportation. Cars are great recreational machines and EVs, petrol cars or other types have different characteristics with different kind of fun(EVs acceleration is amazing but petrol is lightweight and agile, their engines sound is amazing). No, from recreational perspective EVs are not simply better.

KennyBlanken 4y ago

It really can't understated how little Toyota can be trusted here. They've been sending corporate propaganda to schools in what amounts to grooming children: https://electrek.co/2021/11/11/how-toyota-sneakily-spreads-anti-ev-propaganda-in-japan/ https://electrek.co/2021/11/11/how-toyota-sneakily-spreads-a...

mavhc 4y ago
"Self charging hybrid", that's all you need to know
charcircuit 4y ago
That reads as an article from a person who congests propaganda from the other side. Not everything is about not does everyone care about being carbon neutral. BEVs may have just been left out because they are unpopular. It makes sense to teach about common types of cars.
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  Yeah, I'm sure it's a total coincidence that Toyota is sending information pamphlets clearly targeting children, to schools, that mention every type of vehicle except BEVs, which Toyota is known to have lobbied against, in Japan, the US, and EU. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-lobbying-against-ev-adoption-151034380.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/toyota-lobbying-against-ev-ad... https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/climate/toyota-electric-hydrogen.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/25/climate/toyota-electric-h... https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/toyota-bet-wrong-on-evs-so-now-its-lobbying-to-slow-the-transition/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/toyota-bet-wrong-on-evs... https://electrek.co/2021/03/17/toyota-lobbies-us-government-delusional-effort-slow-down-electric-vehicles/ https://electrek.co/2021/03/17/toyota-lobbies-us-government-... https://www.teslarati.com/toyota-slammed-european-funds-anti-ev-lobbying-efforts/ https://www.teslarati.com/toyota-slammed-european-funds-anti...
  - charcircuit 4y ago
    >which Toyota is known to have lobbied against, in Japan, the US, and EU. That doesn't seem to be the case. It seems they want to be able to continue selling iterations of their current products rather than preventing others from selling electric only vehicles.

jeremy_clarkson 4y ago

The argument is purely technical so you can divorce it from the mouth it is being uttered from and consider it on its own merits. To me it makes sense, but I had similar thoughts independently before reading this article. The only assumption is that battery manufacturing will remain challenging for the near future.

brnt 4y ago
Ostensibly purely technical arguments can be carefully crafted to present a particular message. It's a tactic that works well for certain audiences. It does not matter either way, in the EU selling anything but full electric will be illegal as of 2035. If Toyota wants to get out of that lucrative market, it can go ahead.
- rad_gruchalski 4y ago
  > It does not matter either way, in the EU selling anything but full electric will be illegal as of 2035. That is not accurate. It will not be possible to buy a new non-zero emission car.
- semi-extrinsic 4y ago
  My take is that Toyota is 100% correct here, but simultaneously too late with this messaging today. Imagine if the EU and others had taken a reasonable stance 15 years ago, and said "every car sold after 2015 must be an EV or a series hybrid with more than 50 km realistic range on pure electric". The transition towards zero carbon emissions from the road sector would have gone exponentially faster. I mean, even if you look at the countries with the highest rate of EV adoption, like Norway with 65% of the vehicles sold in 2021 being pure EVs, it's still only making a tiny dent in the amount of gasoline and diesel sold - around 5% decrease when you compare Q4 2021 to Q4 2019, and then it's still a bit unclear how much of that drop is attributed to WFH and covid.
  - blkhawk 4y ago
    well its vehicles sold not cars driving. I would expect that to add up quickly over the next decade.

jnsaff2 4y ago

Toyota is even dragging their feet with PHEV’s. Their marketing for Toyota and Lexus still talks about ‘self charging’ hybrids.

mrtksn 4y ago

> I'm hardly an expert on this subject What are your opinions based on? I've seen some some "propaganda science" videos, which were essentially Tesla fanboys defending Tesla's choice for some reason. IMHO, nothing ever is that one dimensional. Obviously those who invested in PHEV or something else will defend that point and I can't see how one can be correct and the other can be the wrong choice when all come with pros and cons. Did Intel made the wrong choice x86? Did Apple made the correct choice with ARM? Isn't it possible that at different stages of maturity of the tech and the market the "correct choice" can be different? Lately I'm very annoyed of the science and tech propaganda on Youtube. One of my favourite YouTubers, Derek Muller of Veritasium, was criticised for filming a propaganda video for Google[0] and I'm afraid that the critics have a point. Company positions in the skin of scientific discussion are not new but with YouTube is seems like we are having hard time to identify them. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM0aohBfUTc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM0aohBfUTc

r00fus 4y ago
Your focus on Tesla ignores that EVs are simply better than PHEVs. Look, it's a Toyota rep talking about PHEVs when they missed the boat on EVs. So its just like your YouTuber.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  > EVs are simply better than PHEVs. Really? hard to argue about that because it's a statement without any backing. "Simply better" , a magical "argument". My focus on Tesla? My Youtuber? I'm not sure if I should honor this strangely aggressive comment. I'm not advocate of any of those, my personal position is that public transportation is both the present and the future of transportation. Cars are great recreational machines and EVs, petrol cars or other types have different characteristics with different kind of fun(EVs acceleration is amazing but petrol is lightweight and agile, their engines sound is amazing). No, from recreational perspective EVs are not simply better.