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Covid learning loss has been a global disaster

• neonate 4y ago
  https://archive.ph/8h0xA https://archive.ph/8h0xA
• Proven 4y ago
  Didn't seem to be a problem for The Economist in 2020 and 2021 - I checked a couple of older articles and and they said there wasn't right or wrong - it simply depended on what data were keyed in to the technocrats' policy models. Any advice on where the affected parents and children can get $5-10K for tutoring so that their kids can catch up? Is the WEF running any give-aways these days?
  • nemo44x 4y ago
    That’s the best part of it all - watching the media, bureaucrats, and others wash their hands of this mess they all demanded without debate or inquiry.
    • thrown_22 4y ago
      Much like the Iraq war, the only people who are punished are those who called it right.
  • datavirtue 4y ago
    Catch up to what? Everyone always says "catch up" or "they are behind" and I have absolutely no idea what they are talking about (I don't think they do either). You are either getting an education or you are not.
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    • xwdv 4y ago
      Typically they are referring to their best life, but most will never make it, because things like this, or racism, discrimination, trauma, bills, all get in the way and make them fall behind. Pretty soon they add up and you can never catch up to your best life. You either settle for what you have; peacefully or bitterly.
    • endisneigh 4y ago
      Catch up refers to being at or around a historical moving average. Is it that complicated to understand? More ideally it refers to where a child would’ve been without hinderances but that’s harder to articulate.
      • maxbond 4y ago
        This just moves the problem around. An average of what? It is worth actually thinking through the question rather than being dismissive.
        • toolz 4y ago
          It's not a binary "either you go into exact details with your entire answer or you're not thinking it through" - it seems intuitive that _many_ people have thought this through and spend their entire careers doing so. This is one reason we have standardized testing in the first place. It seems rather out of nowhere that someone would suggest we aren't measuring and/or don't know what we're measuring. Sure, the measurements probably aren't perfect, but if someone is suggesting we simply have no data on the subject isn't something that seems like a genuine argument.
          • maxbond 4y ago
            Being dismissive is a good indication someone did not think something through. Kinda by definition right? And standardized tests measure, again I ask you, _what_? Isn't it funny how deep we are in this thread and no one has put a name to it? So child A does better on a test than child B. What does that mean? And I do mean, what _precisely_ does that mean. I'll give you my opinion in the interests of fairness, there is no way to know what that means. Maybe one child is better at taking tests. Maybe one child resents the test taking process and isn't interested in participating. There are plenty of examples of meaningless tests that people believe in. Lie detectors do nothing, some people still take them seriously. IQ tests measure the biases of the person designing the test, some people still take them seriously. Haven't you ever filled out a job application and had to answer a 20 minute personality quiz? Do you think that works or makes sense? Is it really crazy to suggest that a top-down structure, where the federal government comes up with some arbitrary standards, then makes up a test to measure compliance with that standard, all in the face of intense political interference - did a bad job? And more importantly - are the standards meaningful at all? This gets to the heart of the original question. Is there a singular path one is supposed to take? Is it really meaningful to measure your progress along that path?
    • mattmcknight 4y ago
      To the standard for the level of learning that students of their age have typically achieved, or the average of how much learning students of their age had achieved pre-pandemic.
      • giraffe_lady 4y ago
        Do you expect to "catch up" to where you would be without the pandemic? I'm not getting my parents back, my city isn't bringing public transit back, there is no world where the pandemic didn't happen. These are its effects, the kids are going to have them too.
        • mattmcknight 4y ago
          I don't expect them to catch up in a time sense- to learn faster than normal. I do expect that it may take them until they are a bit older to reach the standard. Unfortunately, in many places there is no standard, and students are simply socially promoted, irrespective of any progress.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• jsnell 4y ago
  Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32043571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32043571
  • _Microft 4y ago
    This submission was actually earlier as it comes from the second chance pool but the one you linked to made it to the frontpage in the meantime.
• Semaphor 4y ago
  Yesterday, 122 comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32043571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32043571
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• csdvrx 4y ago
  It's sad that we sacrificed the young for the interest of the old: traditionally, it goes the other way around.
  • hotpotamus 4y ago
    I don't know what tradition you're referring to - I don't see many depictions of old men going and fighting wars.
    • AlgorithmicTime 4y ago
    • zmgsabst 4y ago
      That’s because old people aren’t very effective at war compared to fighting age people. He’s talking about during famines, during emergencies, etc. I think if we’d asked most of the parents who skip meals to feed their kids if we should harm their kids’ future to protect elderly and disabled people, they’d have said no. That’s nature: the weak and elderly die — and destroying the whole herd to protect them is stupid.
      • pessimizer 4y ago
        In famines, children die.
      • hotpotamus 4y ago
        Humans aren't herd animals and live much outside of nature (we try as much as possible). Who would you say is more powerful - a twenty year old man who can perform much physical labor, or an 80 year old with a few million in the bank? In America, looking at their leaders; I'd go so far as to say it's gerontocracy.
        • zmgsabst 4y ago
          > Humans aren't herd animals and live much outside of nature (we try as much as possible). Humans are animals who live in groups and in nature: denying that is what caused ultimately negative COVID policies (among other social ills). > In America, looking at their leaders; I'd go so far as to say it's gerontocracy. This is also true of elephants, but their leaders are wiser than American ones and look after the well-being of young in their groups. (Complete with the leader often being an elder rather than the physically toughest bull.) You also confused social credit with power, which is easy to do if you view society as absolute.
• naasking 4y ago
  There's plenty of data showing that time spent in school does not strongly correlate with learning, and that kids that start school much later than their peers very quickly catch up to those peers [1,2]. School is mainly subsidized daycare, but it's daycare that's important especially for poor kids. [1] https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/kids-can-recover-from-missing-even https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/kids-can-recover-from-... [2] https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/highlights-from-the-comments-on-missing https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/highlights-from-the-co...
  • lelandfe 4y ago
    I didn’t see anything in this that addresses the concerns around the delays in attaining literacy for young children. It’s also important to note that the original article does touch on some of these points, but it explains that the situation is different, and different points are also made, eg: > Schools in a quarter of countries still have no plans for catch-up, says unicef > A quarter of poor countries are not keeping track of how many pupils have returned to school. Going after dropouts while there is still a chance to tempt them back is urgent. “It could be hopeless in six months”
  • kjhgkjghkj 4y ago
    It may be vaguely educational daycare, but it's the tool that our society has developed that permits one or both parents to have jobs or careers. As you say, taking that away hurts the poorest the hardest (and rich and powerful, not at all. Ask Gavin Newsom how much disruption his kids experienced). As a side note, it's becoming increasingly well-known that one of the side-effects of Covid control polices is a large reduction in the position of women in the workplace. Also - while what you say may be true, and there may be some merit to a lifestyle that does not depend on such "daycare", such a lifestyle was also not possible under lockdowns. https://www2.deloitte.com/uk/en/insights/economy/impact-of-covid-on-women.html https://www2.deloitte.com/uk/en/insights/economy/impact-of-c...
    • usrn 4y ago
      I'm not convinced having both parents in most families working is actually a good thing. It seems to depress birth rates in most countries to the degree that you eventually get a pretty serious crisis.
• ekianjo 4y ago
  > graph with stronger learning quality shows Japan number 1 that's highly dubious. Who made this graph? Ah, McKinsey. Explains everything.
  • rootusrootus 4y ago
    > Ah, McKinsey. Explains everything. Can you elaborate? At least a couple hints to point in the right direction.
    • chefandy 4y ago
      I have no idea why the commenter found that particular statistic to be suspect but McKinsey is morally bankrupt. Their Wikipedia entry’s “controversies” section offers a few solid examples.
    • grogenaut 4y ago
      McKinsey is a global management consulting company. Some don't trust places like that as they "tend to hire mbas or others out of college and have them tell your CEO what to do (to justify what the CEO wants already)". I have no experience with McKinsey personally other than them not directing me to the other entrance to their building for another business.
  • eastbayjake 4y ago
    I'm surprised a HN community member with your level of contributions would make this sort of comment. From the HN guidelines: "Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." If you have a methodological issue with the analysis, that would be super interesting to share with the community! But these ad hominem fallacies detract from the thoughtful discussions that make HN a special place.
    • ekianjo 4y ago
      > "Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." McKinsey has been indicted several times in obvious ethical issues (opoids crisis anyone) and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Do you have anything to say in their defense, rather? When a bad actor has been identified, you should assume bias instead of good faith by default. > methodological issue with the analysis You don't need to discuss at length the analytical methodology when you can see that the result is obviously false. Japan is certainly NOT the best place in the world for education.
• pessimizer 4y ago
  I can't imagine that the loss could be any more than two years of school attendance, which puts them at the same level as their global peers who went through the same thing. The only reason we think of this as a huge loss is because we don't have free public education, but instead make education far more expensive and difficult to get the older you get. The dilemma isn't about how we can educate children, it's how can we educate children while simultaneously booting them out of a fairly piss-poor for most educational system immediately after high school or any significant pause during high school, to give them the option of a system that costs $15-20K a year in order to be qualified for unpaid internships. If we lose a generation, it will be because we wanted to, not because we didn't have the ability to educate them.
  • DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    Why would we expect "learning loss" (whatever the term is for reduced learning outcomes) to follow such a neat trend? If you neglect a kid for a year, then we don't expect the damage to persist only for a year. Why would this be any different?
    • giraffe_lady 4y ago
      What is a year in the end? You got dozens of them, you can spare one if you really have to, to preserve life, say. The damage comes from the tiering of education, where anyone not "ready" at the next stage doesn't get access to it at all. That structure is a policy decision we've made, not a necessary fact of education or life.
      • lm28469 4y ago
        That's not how it works though. You can't skip socialisation and languages for 2-3 years and expect to just pick these thing as if you were 5 years old again. And even if you could your second point is moot, it is a social construct but it will stay like that, so it end up being a fact of life for everyone.
      • Night_Thastus 4y ago
• cfcf14 4y ago
  I wonder how this will affect attitudes towards schooling as an institution in general in the future? These children will grow up and take their places as policymakers, parents and so on - will they value school more, or less? Perhaps we'll see some large scale restructuring of the school system altogether, which at this point doesn't seem like the worst outcome necessarily, every teacher I've met in my adult life has expressed pretty vocal grievances about almost every administrative aspect of their jobs.
  • juve1996 4y ago
    The kids that suffered from the negative consequences of this are likely not going to be policy makers.
  • kspacewalk2 4y ago
    I wonder what attitude the Philippine children will have towards their elders once they move into the "infirm and needing care" phase of life, considering society run by these elders didn't gave two shits about their well-being and learning for two years, well in excess of even what other countries were doing (much less common sense).
    • bogantech 4y ago
      Do you know any Filipino people? I don't see it moving the needle one bit
      • kspacewalk2 4y ago
        I don't know any Filipino people currently in the Philippines, no.
• Cicero22 4y ago
  Could someone link to the research in the first chart? I couldn't find a citation, and I'm not sure I trust simulations of children who can't read.
• thepangolino 4y ago
• lettergram 4y ago
  You know which group didn’t suffer learning loss? Homeschooled children, which indicates to me the failure is ultimately with the parents. Parents (even if they use schools) are the only party responsible for their kids. Even if you use public schools or public food or public medicine. It’s the parents responsibility to raise their children and teach them. Society seriously failed the children with Covid. But not all of society. I’m way more aware of the parents who take their responsibility seriously. My wife and I moved, reconfigured our whole house, changed jobs, etc to ensure our kids got what they needed. On the one hand it was a good wake up call to a lot of parents (myself included), when I saw them mask my kids under 5 I Showed the school the studies (showing dramatic reduction in learning, IQ and ability). The state still required it, I went to the state, they said “that’s the requirements to protect children and staff”. When I questioned why children need protection, they deflected and said “protect families from covid” At that point I unenrolled all my kids and we have been homeschooling since. All of them are well ahead of where they would have been (using old milestones, not the updated ones). Regardless of Covid, If you can homeschool I’d highly recommend it. As a parent my family has found it way more rewarding and my children learn way more. Frankly, I’m surprised people think the idea of putting “kids the same age” together will ever result in a more “normal” or better experience for kids. Kids need to learn how to behave in society, by themselves (10-20 kids to a teacher) it’s a zoo.
  • yunohn 4y ago
    > Homeschooled children, which indicates to me the failure is ultimately with the parents. > I’m way more aware of the parents who take their responsibility seriously It’s hilarious how you think upheaving your entire life to homeschool your children is so easy and parents have failed if they don’t do so. It’s incredibly expensive and not scalable in any shape or form. This is why actual schools exist.
  • lelandfe 4y ago
    > failure is ultimately with the parents Do you view a lack of time to homeschool as a parental failure? I know single parents working multiple jobs to scrape by. > moved, reconfigured our whole house, changed jobs, etc to ensure our kids got what they needed How would your comment go if you’d been unable to do any of this?
• fortran77 4y ago
  Previous discussion on this article with 140 comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32043571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32043571
• kspacewalk2 4y ago
  >New data suggest that the damage has been worse than almost anyone expected. Anyone who wasn't branded an evil-doing science-denying covidiot grandma-killer, that is.
• mattmcknight 4y ago
  If students are not at the nominal learning level for their age, we need to meet them where they are. End chronological advancement and work towards mastery, topic by topic.
• dncornholio 4y ago
  Kids survived wars that took longer, we will cope.
• zelphirkalt 4y ago
  What the pandemic has shown as well: Where I live most teachers are still computer illiterates, who are barely able to make a voice/video conference with the kids. They have no idea how to teach online. I don't know how we got here, having teachers without basic computer skills, but here we are. Another thing the pandemic has shown here is, that schools are mostly incapable of setting up infrastructure for learning online. Not only schools, but also states and the whole country. It all hinged on depending on Microsoft, whose tools were criticized for not being compliant with data protection rules. As a nation, we were so utterly incapable, that we were unable to provide appropriate online learning environments. We failed. Big time.