4 ms·

No one is claiming Linux is bad for very basic users. It’s fine for people who only ever use bowsers. Linux is also great for developers. It’s most of us in bet

No one is claiming Linux is bad for very basic users. It’s fine for people who only ever use bowsers. Linux is also great for developers. It’s most of us in between who struggle. The last time I booted up Ubuntu I couldn’t even adjust the mouse acceleration without spending 10 minutes on Google and more time installing an additional tool. I tried to install Radarr - a very popular home media server app. The instruction manual required is absurd: https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation Linux developers need to start caring about UX if they want the OS to appreciably rise above 1-2% consumer. Users should never ever, for any reason ever, need to open the CLI. Not when I want to install or configure an app, and certainly not when I want to update a driver or setting.

cycomanic 4y ago
I disagree on not using the cli for installing things etc. Instructions on commands are much easier than instruction about the gui, because they are easily copy pastable. One example i encounter quite a bit, the instructions for installing python and packages for building cython modules. I have students who are very much intermediate Windows users, but explaining to them how to get the development (they need python for experiment control and analysis) environment going is really painful. They often take days to get in going. On the other hand Linux users are much easier, I just give them the commands to install the packages in an email.
- Hellion 4y ago
  First of all, training users to copy stuff into a terminal is just a bad idea. Also, youre basically suggested that users use a GUI (a web browser) to get instructions on how to use a command line. It makes a lot more sense for there to be a clear and easy to use package manager, and if users are having trouble figuring that out, work needs to be done to rectify that. Also, if you’re targeting power users who are familiar with the command line, that’s one thing. But right now linux desktop feels like it wants to be everything for everyone and that’s a very hard rope to walk
- heywoodlh 4y ago
  > I disagree on not using the cli for installing things I think that it depends on who the target audience is. For myself, I heavily prefer the command line for literally everything. But if the goal is for Linux on desktop to be beginner/non-power-user friendly then I agree with the parent comment that you should be able to do everything without opening the CLI. For me, I will always be happier with CLI tools. :)
- Gareth321 4y ago
  Your use case is for developers, and as above, I agree that CLI is easier for that demographic. I am referring to the people between developers and "only ever use browsers." For them I strongly disagree with the notion of telling them to blindly copy and paste sudo commands into terminal. And if the implication is that they should just become proficient with using terminal, then I strongly disagree with anyone having to learn a new skill to install and configure apps and services. We have easy, well tested and well adopted conventions for software now. It's time to accept what is, instead of fighting for what you think others should like.
rad_gruchalski 4y ago
> The instruction manual required is absurd: https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation There exists a Docker image: https://hotio.dev/containers/radarr/ https://hotio.dev/containers/radarr/. It does not appear to be absurd: https://github.com/hotio/radarr/blob/release/linux-amd64.Dockerfile https://github.com/hotio/radarr/blob/release/linux-amd64.Doc....
- Gareth321 4y ago
  While true, this appears to require the CLI. As above, I strongly believe that the CLI should never ever, for any reason ever, be required to install apps. Dockers are also not exactly plug and play, and some understanding of what dockers are, how to maintain them, how to grant file and folder permissions, and how to update packages is required. Your suggestion presents a new set of problems.
bstar77 4y ago
I've had these issues with Gnome and Gnome derivatives. Give KDE Plasma a try. The UI/UX situation is vastly different (this is coming from a Gnome lifer).
- Gareth321 4y ago
  Thanks! I think my next attempt will be some flavour of Arch.
klibertp 4y ago
> I tried to install Radarr - a very popular home media server app. The instruction manual required is absurd: https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation That's because it's written by developers. Devs are generally really poor at explaining things and they rarely have enough empathy to even notice that "normal people" might not necessarily understand (or care) as to why would they be better off compiling software from source. It's a known problem: documentation writing is one of the most hated software engineering-related work. It's a self-defeating but prevalent notion that "you can just read the code, so why would I write the docs?" Also: "nobody reads the docs" -> "why would I put effort into writing something nobody reads?" -> the docs are bad (obviously) -> "nobody reads the docs"... In this particular case: the docs here are really, really badly structured and the styles/colors/margins/etc make it even less readable. At least, however, the authors of the wiki try to be helpful: > If you want an easy life, follow this community provided and maintained Easy Install script for a base Debian (Raspbian / Raspberry Pi OS) / Ubuntu install. There's a link to the script below. That's already the best you can expect from developers who are not specifically paid to produce installers (or, alternatively, use a framework that generates the installers automatically). The vast majority of devs never consider that people would like to easily and quickly install their software to try it out, then uninstall it if it's not to their liking. Also, why would you spend your time on an un-installer? If the user doesn't like their software, the devs assume it's the user's problem, not theirs. It's so irritating that I've set up automatic snapshots on /usr/ and /usr/local/ just to be able to easily get rid of stuff that ends up there with every `make install` I execute. I know how it sounds - I'm not trying to justify this way of working on and with software, just thought I'll share what little insight I got after working with Linux-y things for two decades... > The last time I booted up Ubuntu I couldn’t even adjust the mouse acceleration without spending 10 minutes on Google It doesn't change anything, but I had a pretty horrible experience with Windows and MacOS drivers for Logitech trackballs[1][2]. While the setup on Linux took a few hours, included 3 different applications, 4 different config files, and dozens of man pages to read, it at least enabled me to actually get the most out of the hardware. It was utterly impossible to configure the trackballs to my liking under Windows. I didn't try very hard under MacOS, but the initial research suggested it's even worse there (Logitech seemed to be hell-bent on "Windows first, second, and last" policy for some reason). > Users should never ever, for any reason ever, need to open the CLI. Not sure I agree, not fully. Text-based interfaces have their place - they present very different trade-off between accessibility and convenience than GUIs do. There's a reason why the command prompt metaphor is still alive, 30+ years after the hardware got good enough to display a GUI on home computers. Though it's probably better left to people who want to use it, not people who are forced to use it; kind of like regedit.exe was always shipped with Windows, even though 99%[3] of users didn't (need to) know of its existence. [1] https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360025260314--Product-Gallery-Marble-Mouse https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360025260314--Pro... [2] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-wireless-trackball-mouse.910-005178.html https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-wireles... [3] Well, depending on an era and target demographic.

cycomanic 4y ago

I disagree on not using the cli for installing things etc. Instructions on commands are much easier than instruction about the gui, because they are easily copy pastable. One example i encounter quite a bit, the instructions for installing python and packages for building cython modules. I have students who are very much intermediate Windows users, but explaining to them how to get the development (they need python for experiment control and analysis) environment going is really painful. They often take days to get in going. On the other hand Linux users are much easier, I just give them the commands to install the packages in an email.

Hellion 4y ago
First of all, training users to copy stuff into a terminal is just a bad idea. Also, youre basically suggested that users use a GUI (a web browser) to get instructions on how to use a command line. It makes a lot more sense for there to be a clear and easy to use package manager, and if users are having trouble figuring that out, work needs to be done to rectify that. Also, if you’re targeting power users who are familiar with the command line, that’s one thing. But right now linux desktop feels like it wants to be everything for everyone and that’s a very hard rope to walk
heywoodlh 4y ago
> I disagree on not using the cli for installing things I think that it depends on who the target audience is. For myself, I heavily prefer the command line for literally everything. But if the goal is for Linux on desktop to be beginner/non-power-user friendly then I agree with the parent comment that you should be able to do everything without opening the CLI. For me, I will always be happier with CLI tools. :)
Gareth321 4y ago
Your use case is for developers, and as above, I agree that CLI is easier for that demographic. I am referring to the people between developers and "only ever use browsers." For them I strongly disagree with the notion of telling them to blindly copy and paste sudo commands into terminal. And if the implication is that they should just become proficient with using terminal, then I strongly disagree with anyone having to learn a new skill to install and configure apps and services. We have easy, well tested and well adopted conventions for software now. It's time to accept what is, instead of fighting for what you think others should like.

rad_gruchalski 4y ago

> The instruction manual required is absurd: https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation There exists a Docker image: https://hotio.dev/containers/radarr/ https://hotio.dev/containers/radarr/. It does not appear to be absurd: https://github.com/hotio/radarr/blob/release/linux-amd64.Dockerfile https://github.com/hotio/radarr/blob/release/linux-amd64.Doc....

Gareth321 4y ago
While true, this appears to require the CLI. As above, I strongly believe that the CLI should never ever, for any reason ever, be required to install apps. Dockers are also not exactly plug and play, and some understanding of what dockers are, how to maintain them, how to grant file and folder permissions, and how to update packages is required. Your suggestion presents a new set of problems.

bstar77 4y ago

I've had these issues with Gnome and Gnome derivatives. Give KDE Plasma a try. The UI/UX situation is vastly different (this is coming from a Gnome lifer).

Gareth321 4y ago
Thanks! I think my next attempt will be some flavour of Arch.

klibertp 4y ago

> I tried to install Radarr - a very popular home media server app. The instruction manual required is absurd: https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation That's because it's written by developers. Devs are generally really poor at explaining things and they rarely have enough empathy to even notice that "normal people" might not necessarily understand (or care) as to why would they be better off compiling software from source. It's a known problem: documentation writing is one of the most hated software engineering-related work. It's a self-defeating but prevalent notion that "you can just read the code, so why would I write the docs?" Also: "nobody reads the docs" -> "why would I put effort into writing something nobody reads?" -> the docs are bad (obviously) -> "nobody reads the docs"... In this particular case: the docs here are really, really badly structured and the styles/colors/margins/etc make it even less readable. At least, however, the authors of the wiki try to be helpful: > If you want an easy life, follow this community provided and maintained Easy Install script for a base Debian (Raspbian / Raspberry Pi OS) / Ubuntu install. There's a link to the script below. That's already the best you can expect from developers who are not specifically paid to produce installers (or, alternatively, use a framework that generates the installers automatically). The vast majority of devs never consider that people would like to easily and quickly install their software to try it out, then uninstall it if it's not to their liking. Also, why would you spend your time on an un-installer? If the user doesn't like their software, the devs assume it's the user's problem, not theirs. It's so irritating that I've set up automatic snapshots on /usr/ and /usr/local/ just to be able to easily get rid of stuff that ends up there with every `make install` I execute. I know how it sounds - I'm not trying to justify this way of working on and with software, just thought I'll share what little insight I got after working with Linux-y things for two decades... > The last time I booted up Ubuntu I couldn’t even adjust the mouse acceleration without spending 10 minutes on Google It doesn't change anything, but I had a pretty horrible experience with Windows and MacOS drivers for Logitech trackballs[1][2]. While the setup on Linux took a few hours, included 3 different applications, 4 different config files, and dozens of man pages to read, it at least enabled me to actually get the most out of the hardware. It was utterly impossible to configure the trackballs to my liking under Windows. I didn't try very hard under MacOS, but the initial research suggested it's even worse there (Logitech seemed to be hell-bent on "Windows first, second, and last" policy for some reason). > Users should never ever, for any reason ever, need to open the CLI. Not sure I agree, not fully. Text-based interfaces have their place - they present very different trade-off between accessibility and convenience than GUIs do. There's a reason why the command prompt metaphor is still alive, 30+ years after the hardware got good enough to display a GUI on home computers. Though it's probably better left to people who want to use it, not people who are forced to use it; kind of like regedit.exe was always shipped with Windows, even though 99%[3] of users didn't (need to) know of its existence. [1] https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360025260314--Product-Gallery-Marble-Mouse https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360025260314--Pro... [2] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-wireless-trackball-mouse.910-005178.html https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-wireles... [3] Well, depending on an era and target demographic.