6 ms·

Microsoft begins “Extinguish” phase of dealing with Open Source

57 points by l0b0 4y ago

h2odragon 4y ago
not quite yet. Wait til they're selling you your own code back. I'm thinking something having to do with "software BoM" and OSen that can only run stuff from certified sources.
beebeepka 4y ago
I thought this was going to be about hiring Poettering
- NexRebular 4y ago
  Isn't Poettering already doing his own EEE in the linux ecosystem? FOSS is becoming harder and harder to port to other systems due huge amount of linux-specific code creeping into everything.
  - mistrial9 4y ago
    porting has always been hard; need to include the software category here.. Debian Tags is a useful start for that? https://packages.debian.org/about/debtags https://packages.debian.org/about/debtags
    - NexRebular 4y ago
      Not sure how that helps porting e.g. systemd infested software to *BSD or illumos
- qbasic_forever 4y ago
  Do people not realize that Microsoft themselves produce a Linux distribution for Azure (both a cloud and IoT distro)? Microsoft has a lot of incentives to keep the Linux ecosystem thriving and folks like Poettering employed and working on systemd, etc.
dustinmoris 4y ago
This is a great example of it happening in the .NET world: https://github.com/OmniSharp/omnisharp-vscode/issues/5276 https://github.com/OmniSharp/omnisharp-vscode/issues/5276
Daviey 4y ago
I really wish we wouldn't give this chap a platform. He really is terrible.
bioemerl 4y ago
As someone who there's a lot of programming with C# and loves it, are there any good alternatives? This plus the stuff they're doing with Minecraft recently has me very much wanting to get away from them. They've made it clear that they will abuse any power they have. However, none of the alternatives seem that good. Python is slow, dynamic, and a pain to write large projects in, JavaScript is reliant on typescript and TypeScript is Microsoft. Go is Google. Enough said. Rust seems cool, but I'm not really on the system's side of programming so it's not super suited to the sort of things I want to do. Is the only alternative Microsoft doesn't have their fingers in right now Kotlin? It's going to be expensive, but jet brains even provides the IDE so I can get away from VS code.
- sidpatil 4y ago
  What about Java?
  - Pokepokalypse 4y ago
    You mean: Oracle™ Java®.
  - bioemerl 4y ago
    Unless I'm wrong, my understanding is that Java is just kind of a bad language. What makes C# great is how heavily it has leaned towards functional programming. Java, As far as I understand, is still very object-oriented and very clumsy. Kotlin, as far as I understand, fixes those issues.
    - thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
      >> Java, As far as I understand, is still very object-oriented and very clumsy. How much modern Java have you read or written recently? Modern Java supports functional programming and is not as clumsy as it used to be: https://betterprogramming.pub/functional-programming-in-java-explained-ae396e9e516f https://betterprogramming.pub/functional-programming-in-java... Java also has better cross-platform support than C#.
TazeTSchnitzel 4y ago
Didn't Microsoft basically immediately clarify that the new policy is only meant to target developers with no affiliation with a project who are lazily repackaging open-source apps and trying to make a quick buck? Edit: Yeah, see https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/08/microsoft_store_open_source_webkit/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/08/microsoft_store_open_...: > In response, Sardo, who oversees the Microsoft Store, insisted Microsoft is just trying to prevent abusive store listings, like app clones. > "We absolutely want to support developers distributing successful OSS apps," he said. "In fact there are already fantastic OSS apps in the Store! The goal of this policy is to protect customers from misleading listings." > Sardo said Microsoft would review the policy language to make sure its intent is clear.
- nunez 4y ago
  That's my devil's advocate take. This basically prevents another uBlock or $INSERT_ANY_CHEETAH_MOBILE_THING situation.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- qbasic_forever 4y ago
  Yeah this seems like something that should have been researched and run by press contacts at Microsoft before assuming it was as they (wrongly) describe in the blog post. It seems like the policy exists so a team like Krita can kick out anyone repackaging their open source tool on the app store and instead ship/sell it there directly themselves.
- lakomen 4y ago
  However this is not against most os licences. And no one called Microsoft to play gatekeeper or nanny.
  - SirSavary 4y ago
    Many, many people have been calling for MS to clean up their store since it was launched. It has been full of crapware for its entire existence; most devs have only used it to install WSL.
rvz 4y ago
He’s right you know. Microsoft is getting very creative with their extinguishing on the open-source community. This is just one of many ways of doing it. They are getting so clever at it, not many have seem to have noticed but instead played along and thought it was all fine, until the complaints finally came in. More examples of recent ‘extinguishing’ or typical EEE: [0] [1] [2] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29686076 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29686076 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28829936 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28829936 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31944138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31944138
- happyopossum 4y ago
  Wait a sec, your 'proof' of this is a series of links to your own HN posts making similar accusations? I'm not sure that's how that's supposed to work...
  - rvz 4y ago
    Absolutely yes. The funny thing is, it is still true to this day.
CyanLite2 4y ago
Did anybody actually read the article? It is clear FUD. It's just a minor policy change on the Microsoft Store which says you can't create an "app" for a free open source product as if it's your own. So, you can't create an app of Ubuntu Linux and charge $5 for every download on the Microsoft Store. Reasonable. Sound.
- cowtools 4y ago
  Who "owns" a free/open source program? Many of these programs are not trademarked.
  - qbasic_forever 4y ago
    Trademarks are for names. Copyright is what you're thinking of and it applies to a 'work' that you create like a program, source code, drawing, music, etc: https://www.copyright.gov/what-is-copyright/ https://www.copyright.gov/what-is-copyright/ So the person or people that wrote the code own the copyright to it and can control how it's licensed.
    - cowtools 4y ago
      I know, but if the program is licensed with GPL somewhere, what is legally stopping another person from distributing it on the windows store or whatever (other than trademarks associated with the name, for example the "Ubuntu" trademark)? If there is nothing legally stopping them from doing that, then how is Microsoft going to arbitrarily enforce these new rules?
      - kaba0 4y ago
        In the EU, isn’t it the case that you can’t completely give up your rights as a creator? So in a way, GPL is not even completely compatible with EU-laws? IANAL, just asking the question, I might be super wrong.
      - psandor 4y ago
        Not sure about GPL, but this is one of the very few (2-4) restrictions of a BSD license: "Neither the name of the copyright holder nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission."
Analemma_ 4y ago
Looking at some of the other headlines from this guy's Substack (e.g. "Linus threatens to punish developers by including Rust in the kernel") he seems like a total crank and not worth taking seriously.
rolph 4y ago
FOSS store required immediately how much does mircrosoft have to do with steam beyond having an app? how could valve be made amenable to serviceing linux platforms in general, in addition to curating ported games? i know these guys were MS at one time but the past tense may be a benevolent condition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Corporation What other candidates for FOSS "store" exist beyond repositories? I dont think github is in that pool anymore. if valve provided a linux onboarding platform, in addition to games and repos, that just may have beneficial consequences for FOSS and valve
- ViViDboarder 4y ago
  There is a huge FOSS store. In fact, it’s been the default for obtaining software for over two decades now. It’s called “just download it from the website”.
  - rolph 4y ago
    that model works to onboard a sector of the pie, the experience of hunting and pecking through a store is a familiar experience, mimicking the array of icons UI so common to phones, and app stores. having a "store" brings all the various ...downloaditfroms... to a centralized place of one stop shopping. thats the level of convienience expected by general consumers, and thats required to make the wedge of the pie widen and become a little more stable. The bigger issue is that FOSS is seen as difficult, dangerous, what hackers do, etc due to marketing forces, and the effort to keep people safe from the internet
daviddever23box 4y ago
Yeah...no. I've been saying for a while that the current Windows kernel is not long for this world. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, though pablum like this Schlubstack article is no place to start.
sebazzz 4y ago
What a bullshit. By this account Paint.NET also can't ask for money in the MS Store because it is also software that is otherwise generally available for free.

57 points by l0b0 4y ago

not quite yet. Wait til they're selling you your own code back. I'm thinking something having to do with "software BoM" and OSen that can only run stuff from certified sources.

beebeepka 4y ago

I thought this was going to be about hiring Poettering

NexRebular 4y ago
Isn't Poettering already doing his own EEE in the linux ecosystem? FOSS is becoming harder and harder to port to other systems due huge amount of linux-specific code creeping into everything.
- mistrial9 4y ago
  porting has always been hard; need to include the software category here.. Debian Tags is a useful start for that? https://packages.debian.org/about/debtags https://packages.debian.org/about/debtags
  - NexRebular 4y ago
    Not sure how that helps porting e.g. systemd infested software to *BSD or illumos
qbasic_forever 4y ago
Do people not realize that Microsoft themselves produce a Linux distribution for Azure (both a cloud and IoT distro)? Microsoft has a lot of incentives to keep the Linux ecosystem thriving and folks like Poettering employed and working on systemd, etc.

dustinmoris 4y ago

This is a great example of it happening in the .NET world: https://github.com/OmniSharp/omnisharp-vscode/issues/5276 https://github.com/OmniSharp/omnisharp-vscode/issues/5276

Daviey 4y ago

I really wish we wouldn't give this chap a platform. He really is terrible.

bioemerl 4y ago

As someone who there's a lot of programming with C# and loves it, are there any good alternatives? This plus the stuff they're doing with Minecraft recently has me very much wanting to get away from them. They've made it clear that they will abuse any power they have. However, none of the alternatives seem that good. Python is slow, dynamic, and a pain to write large projects in, JavaScript is reliant on typescript and TypeScript is Microsoft. Go is Google. Enough said. Rust seems cool, but I'm not really on the system's side of programming so it's not super suited to the sort of things I want to do. Is the only alternative Microsoft doesn't have their fingers in right now Kotlin? It's going to be expensive, but jet brains even provides the IDE so I can get away from VS code.

sidpatil 4y ago
What about Java?
- Pokepokalypse 4y ago
  You mean: Oracle™ Java®.
- bioemerl 4y ago
  Unless I'm wrong, my understanding is that Java is just kind of a bad language. What makes C# great is how heavily it has leaned towards functional programming. Java, As far as I understand, is still very object-oriented and very clumsy. Kotlin, as far as I understand, fixes those issues.
  - thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
    >> Java, As far as I understand, is still very object-oriented and very clumsy. How much modern Java have you read or written recently? Modern Java supports functional programming and is not as clumsy as it used to be: https://betterprogramming.pub/functional-programming-in-java-explained-ae396e9e516f https://betterprogramming.pub/functional-programming-in-java... Java also has better cross-platform support than C#.

TazeTSchnitzel 4y ago

Didn't Microsoft basically immediately clarify that the new policy is only meant to target developers with no affiliation with a project who are lazily repackaging open-source apps and trying to make a quick buck? Edit: Yeah, see https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/08/microsoft_store_open_source_webkit/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/08/microsoft_store_open_...: > In response, Sardo, who oversees the Microsoft Store, insisted Microsoft is just trying to prevent abusive store listings, like app clones. > "We absolutely want to support developers distributing successful OSS apps," he said. "In fact there are already fantastic OSS apps in the Store! The goal of this policy is to protect customers from misleading listings." > Sardo said Microsoft would review the policy language to make sure its intent is clear.

nunez 4y ago
That's my devil's advocate take. This basically prevents another uBlock or $INSERT_ANY_CHEETAH_MOBILE_THING situation.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
qbasic_forever 4y ago
Yeah this seems like something that should have been researched and run by press contacts at Microsoft before assuming it was as they (wrongly) describe in the blog post. It seems like the policy exists so a team like Krita can kick out anyone repackaging their open source tool on the app store and instead ship/sell it there directly themselves.
lakomen 4y ago
However this is not against most os licences. And no one called Microsoft to play gatekeeper or nanny.
- SirSavary 4y ago
  Many, many people have been calling for MS to clean up their store since it was launched. It has been full of crapware for its entire existence; most devs have only used it to install WSL.

rvz 4y ago

He’s right you know. Microsoft is getting very creative with their extinguishing on the open-source community. This is just one of many ways of doing it. They are getting so clever at it, not many have seem to have noticed but instead played along and thought it was all fine, until the complaints finally came in. More examples of recent ‘extinguishing’ or typical EEE: [0] [1] [2] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29686076 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29686076 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28829936 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28829936 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31944138 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31944138

happyopossum 4y ago
Wait a sec, your 'proof' of this is a series of links to your own HN posts making similar accusations? I'm not sure that's how that's supposed to work...
- rvz 4y ago
  Absolutely yes. The funny thing is, it is still true to this day.

CyanLite2 4y ago

Did anybody actually read the article? It is clear FUD. It's just a minor policy change on the Microsoft Store which says you can't create an "app" for a free open source product as if it's your own. So, you can't create an app of Ubuntu Linux and charge $5 for every download on the Microsoft Store. Reasonable. Sound.

cowtools 4y ago
Who "owns" a free/open source program? Many of these programs are not trademarked.
- qbasic_forever 4y ago
  Trademarks are for names. Copyright is what you're thinking of and it applies to a 'work' that you create like a program, source code, drawing, music, etc: https://www.copyright.gov/what-is-copyright/ https://www.copyright.gov/what-is-copyright/ So the person or people that wrote the code own the copyright to it and can control how it's licensed.
  - cowtools 4y ago
    I know, but if the program is licensed with GPL somewhere, what is legally stopping another person from distributing it on the windows store or whatever (other than trademarks associated with the name, for example the "Ubuntu" trademark)? If there is nothing legally stopping them from doing that, then how is Microsoft going to arbitrarily enforce these new rules?
    - kaba0 4y ago
      In the EU, isn’t it the case that you can’t completely give up your rights as a creator? So in a way, GPL is not even completely compatible with EU-laws? IANAL, just asking the question, I might be super wrong.
    - psandor 4y ago
      Not sure about GPL, but this is one of the very few (2-4) restrictions of a BSD license: "Neither the name of the copyright holder nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission."

Analemma_ 4y ago

Looking at some of the other headlines from this guy's Substack (e.g. "Linus threatens to punish developers by including Rust in the kernel") he seems like a total crank and not worth taking seriously.

rolph 4y ago

FOSS store required immediately how much does mircrosoft have to do with steam beyond having an app? how could valve be made amenable to serviceing linux platforms in general, in addition to curating ported games? i know these guys were MS at one time but the past tense may be a benevolent condition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Corporation What other candidates for FOSS "store" exist beyond repositories? I dont think github is in that pool anymore. if valve provided a linux onboarding platform, in addition to games and repos, that just may have beneficial consequences for FOSS and valve

ViViDboarder 4y ago
There is a huge FOSS store. In fact, it’s been the default for obtaining software for over two decades now. It’s called “just download it from the website”.
- rolph 4y ago
  that model works to onboard a sector of the pie, the experience of hunting and pecking through a store is a familiar experience, mimicking the array of icons UI so common to phones, and app stores. having a "store" brings all the various ...downloaditfroms... to a centralized place of one stop shopping. thats the level of convienience expected by general consumers, and thats required to make the wedge of the pie widen and become a little more stable. The bigger issue is that FOSS is seen as difficult, dangerous, what hackers do, etc due to marketing forces, and the effort to keep people safe from the internet

daviddever23box 4y ago

Yeah...no. I've been saying for a while that the current Windows kernel is not long for this world. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, though pablum like this Schlubstack article is no place to start.

sebazzz 4y ago

What a bullshit. By this account Paint.NET also can't ask for money in the MS Store because it is also software that is otherwise generally available for free.