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> argument from intuition - that it sure feels like we're special, and so therefore we must be special even if there's nothing in particular we can point to in

> argument from intuition - that it sure feels like we're special, and so therefore we must be special even if there's nothing in particular we can point to in favour of this notion The reverse is no less of an argument from intuition. Yes, at first thought it’s compelling to think that consciousness arises from what we consider “material world” (see naïve realism[0]), so of course we should be able to come up with some arrangement of material world elements that creates a consciousness—but there’s nothing in particular we can point to in favor of the notion that consciousness arises from material world in the first place. Neither position is known to be correct, it’s a philosophical issue in which you can argue for either side—but without an ability to show definite proof in favor of your take, ridiculing the other is just lazy thinking. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naïve_realism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naïve_realism

Retric 4y ago
The fact you get drunk is very strong evidence though not proof that the material world creates consciousness. Physical interactions impacting consciousness in a huge number of repeatable ways isn’t proof of anything but it's by far the simplest explanation.
- strogonoff 4y ago
  Indeed, it’s not a proof. Deciding to buy and ingest alcohol (then neurons firing in certain ways, etc.) doesn’t violate a possible non-physicalist take in which the perception of that happening is a map of the territory that is your consciousness.
  - Retric 4y ago
    You can get drunk without realizing your drinking alcohol which means it’s more complicated than simple observation and expectation. Keep trying to cover all the edge cases and you can end up with a god like collective unconscious that just happens to simulate the physical laws the way we currently expect even before humanity was aware of them. Which is undetectable dragon in your garage territory.
    - strogonoff 4y ago
      > You can get drunk without realizing your drinking alcohol There’s been a conscious choice to produce alcohol and put it in your drink. > Keep trying to cover all the edge cases As if you don’t have any. Complexity of the territory aside, does this make more magic leaps than, say, mind-body dualism or discarding the one single thing directly accessible as an illusion? > simulate the physical laws the way we currently expect even before humanity was aware of them Our consciousness devises models to describe the perceived time-space that’s ultimately an artifact of consciousness itself. Though they seem to be useful, it’s up in the air whether they model the territory or the map, or what is the territory.
      - Retric 4y ago
        > There’s been a conscious choice to produce alcohol and put it in your drink. Fruits etc can easily ferment without you realizing it. So people aren't necessarily aware they are adding alcohol not are you nessiarily aware you are drinking it. > As if you don’t have any. The material world explanation has zero edge cases it's completely self consistent.
        strogonoff 4y ago
        > Fruits etc can easily ferment Replace “alcohol” with “alcohol from fermented fruit” > The material world explanation has zero edge cases it's completely self consistent. The explanation of how consciousness arises from material world? Indulge me.
        Retric 4y ago
        > Replace “alcohol” with “alcohol from fermented fruit” That’s different, someone can be aware of fruit but not the alcohol within it. To assume they are interchangeable is it to make assumptions about what’s going on. > The explanation of how consciousness arises from material world? Consciousness is a product of the physical world. That's the theory and explanation.
thfuran 4y ago
>but there’s nothing in particular we can point to in favor of the notion that consciousness arises from material world in the first place. Yeah, just pretty much all of science, and that's rubbish anyways.
- tsol 4y ago
  Where is the paper proving that conciousness is material in origin?
  - thfuran 4y ago
    Essentially, the entire body of science is evidence that all phenomena are material in origin. We've yet to demonstrate a single one isn't.
    - throwaway290 4y ago
      Science does nothing to prove that though. "What is true reality" is a philosophical question. What you would be looking for is not a physics paper but some philosophical work.

Retric 4y ago

The fact you get drunk is very strong evidence though not proof that the material world creates consciousness. Physical interactions impacting consciousness in a huge number of repeatable ways isn’t proof of anything but it's by far the simplest explanation.

strogonoff 4y ago
Indeed, it’s not a proof. Deciding to buy and ingest alcohol (then neurons firing in certain ways, etc.) doesn’t violate a possible non-physicalist take in which the perception of that happening is a map of the territory that is your consciousness.
- Retric 4y ago
  You can get drunk without realizing your drinking alcohol which means it’s more complicated than simple observation and expectation. Keep trying to cover all the edge cases and you can end up with a god like collective unconscious that just happens to simulate the physical laws the way we currently expect even before humanity was aware of them. Which is undetectable dragon in your garage territory.
  - strogonoff 4y ago
    > You can get drunk without realizing your drinking alcohol There’s been a conscious choice to produce alcohol and put it in your drink. > Keep trying to cover all the edge cases As if you don’t have any. Complexity of the territory aside, does this make more magic leaps than, say, mind-body dualism or discarding the one single thing directly accessible as an illusion? > simulate the physical laws the way we currently expect even before humanity was aware of them Our consciousness devises models to describe the perceived time-space that’s ultimately an artifact of consciousness itself. Though they seem to be useful, it’s up in the air whether they model the territory or the map, or what is the territory.
    - Retric 4y ago
      > There’s been a conscious choice to produce alcohol and put it in your drink. Fruits etc can easily ferment without you realizing it. So people aren't necessarily aware they are adding alcohol not are you nessiarily aware you are drinking it. > As if you don’t have any. The material world explanation has zero edge cases it's completely self consistent.
      - strogonoff 4y ago
        > Fruits etc can easily ferment Replace “alcohol” with “alcohol from fermented fruit” > The material world explanation has zero edge cases it's completely self consistent. The explanation of how consciousness arises from material world? Indulge me.
        Retric 4y ago
        > Replace “alcohol” with “alcohol from fermented fruit” That’s different, someone can be aware of fruit but not the alcohol within it. To assume they are interchangeable is it to make assumptions about what’s going on. > The explanation of how consciousness arises from material world? Consciousness is a product of the physical world. That's the theory and explanation.

thfuran 4y ago

>but there’s nothing in particular we can point to in favor of the notion that consciousness arises from material world in the first place. Yeah, just pretty much all of science, and that's rubbish anyways.

tsol 4y ago
Where is the paper proving that conciousness is material in origin?
- thfuran 4y ago
  Essentially, the entire body of science is evidence that all phenomena are material in origin. We've yet to demonstrate a single one isn't.
  - throwaway290 4y ago
    Science does nothing to prove that though. "What is true reality" is a philosophical question. What you would be looking for is not a physics paper but some philosophical work.