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The Framework Laptop is entirely our own design and architecture, with no white-label or pre-existing ODM/OEM parts. The cost of developing a from scratch lapt

by nrp 4y ago

The Framework Laptop is entirely our own design and architecture, with no white-label or pre-existing ODM/OEM parts. The cost of developing a from scratch laptop like ours is closer to the mid seven figures.

hedora 4y ago
I worked on some proprietary thing (not a laptop) and mid seven figures sounds about right for just the motherboard, case, etc. Our thing was more custom than the framework, but mid seven figures sounds like a steal. Does that include making Linux be reliable on it? (5 engineers total on the EE/mechanical/industrial engineering and SW bringup teams * 4 year product lifespan is mid seven figures, just for salary. That doesn't include facilities, HW budget, stock, etc) I've never used a framework, but I assume suspend resume is reliable, it can sleep for a week, the GPU works, sound card doesn't pop/crackle, etc, etc... That stuff is hard to get right over time as distros get updated, which is why the above team needs to stick around over time (hopefully while they make version N+1).
- trelane 4y ago
  It is built for and comes with Windows or no OS, so I'm dubious about it as a Linux platform. AFAICT, you have to be intentional about Linux support due to the 800 lb gorilla in the market. Like System76, the firmware is open source, so perhaps after a while it'll work.
  - nrp 4y ago
    Linux compatibility for popular distros: https://frame.work/linux https://frame.work/linux
    - trelane 4y ago
      Nice guide, but I've bitter experience with guides vs support. Edit: sure enough. Several little gotchas and obscure commands even with the top-line distro, fedora. From the crowd sourced setup guide (https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Fedora+36+Installation+on+the+Framework+Laptop/108 https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Fedora+36+Installation+on+th...) > If you are seeing high suspend power drain, set "nvme.noacpi=1" in your kernel parameters. In Fedora, you can do this by running the following command: sudo grubby --update-kernel=ALL --args="nvme.noacpi=1" > sudo grubby --update-kernel=ALL --args="module_blacklist=hid_sensor_hub" Yeah, no. This is not what I would consider supporting Linux. Are there more gotchas? Who knows? Nobody's checking until its released!
baybal2 4y ago
> entirely our own design and architecture, with no white-label or pre-existing ODM/OEM parts My impression was that Quanta does way more for Framework than final integration. Well, good to see that somebody takes on the design themselves today. > The cost of developing a from scratch laptop like ours is closer to the mid seven figures. With most of that being the cost of buying the reference design, and access to the documentation I believe? I last worked on a budget Atom laptop back in 2014. Back then the docs were freely available with enough good Googling, as well as commercial quantities of Atom chipsets sold around Intel's channel. Now I believe it's near impossible without going through an Intel approved IDH.

by nrp 4y ago

hedora 4y ago

I worked on some proprietary thing (not a laptop) and mid seven figures sounds about right for just the motherboard, case, etc. Our thing was more custom than the framework, but mid seven figures sounds like a steal. Does that include making Linux be reliable on it? (5 engineers total on the EE/mechanical/industrial engineering and SW bringup teams * 4 year product lifespan is mid seven figures, just for salary. That doesn't include facilities, HW budget, stock, etc) I've never used a framework, but I assume suspend resume is reliable, it can sleep for a week, the GPU works, sound card doesn't pop/crackle, etc, etc... That stuff is hard to get right over time as distros get updated, which is why the above team needs to stick around over time (hopefully while they make version N+1).

trelane 4y ago
It is built for and comes with Windows or no OS, so I'm dubious about it as a Linux platform. AFAICT, you have to be intentional about Linux support due to the 800 lb gorilla in the market. Like System76, the firmware is open source, so perhaps after a while it'll work.
- nrp 4y ago
  Linux compatibility for popular distros: https://frame.work/linux https://frame.work/linux
  - trelane 4y ago
    Nice guide, but I've bitter experience with guides vs support. Edit: sure enough. Several little gotchas and obscure commands even with the top-line distro, fedora. From the crowd sourced setup guide (https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Fedora+36+Installation+on+the+Framework+Laptop/108 https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Fedora+36+Installation+on+th...) > If you are seeing high suspend power drain, set "nvme.noacpi=1" in your kernel parameters. In Fedora, you can do this by running the following command: sudo grubby --update-kernel=ALL --args="nvme.noacpi=1" > sudo grubby --update-kernel=ALL --args="module_blacklist=hid_sensor_hub" Yeah, no. This is not what I would consider supporting Linux. Are there more gotchas? Who knows? Nobody's checking until its released!

baybal2 4y ago

> entirely our own design and architecture, with no white-label or pre-existing ODM/OEM parts My impression was that Quanta does way more for Framework than final integration. Well, good to see that somebody takes on the design themselves today. > The cost of developing a from scratch laptop like ours is closer to the mid seven figures. With most of that being the cost of buying the reference design, and access to the documentation I believe? I last worked on a budget Atom laptop back in 2014. Back then the docs were freely available with enough good Googling, as well as commercial quantities of Atom chipsets sold around Intel's channel. Now I believe it's near impossible without going through an Intel approved IDH.