4 ms·

It's impossible to generalize across a broad range of use because each person's needs are different and non-negotiable. We've had plenty of examples of totally

It's impossible to generalize across a broad range of use because each person's needs are different and non-negotiable. We've had plenty of examples of totally tech illiterate people using linux with zero problems since 1999 but they're totally irrelevant because they happen to be the people who are on the narrow set of rails that don't touch linux's rough edges. To make a convincing case, you have to move beyond anecdote to actual statistical analysis and the numbers are still pretty overwhelming that many common things that many common people need to do can't be done without the CLI. And even if you generate data that 60, 70, 80% of people would have no problems using linux, that's irrelevant in the case of a specific person who has a specific common need that linux falls over at.

arminiusreturns 4y ago
How about we also include how MS infiltrated the education system with hidden incentives and essentially forced training in a non-free user hostile operating system to multiple genrations of people? I think people had to learn Windows. They can learn Linux. The excuses are bs. Schools should teach unix/linux, and not proprietary systems. We should expect people to learn new things to be able to operate new tools. Thats ok to expect. This idea that the computer is a dumb terminal is far too prevelant thanks to phone and tablet proliferation, another tech corrupted at the outset to be user-hostile and spy on them. Desktop linix and laptop linux are 99% of the way there. Yes, you will have to learn new commands and ways of doing things. Yes, some software you are used to won't work (wine be praised). It's worth all the trouble though. Freedom isn't free, you have to actively persue it. I look around and see way too much Stockholm Syndrome going on.
- toastal 4y ago
  It's all software really. Most people would be fine without Adobe or Microsoft Office or Google Docs. We don't need to train kids with GitHub, Sibelius or Dorico, the list goes on. Concepts don't require application-specific training and the FOSS options are largely good enough if not better than the proprietary competitors.
  - wardedVibe 4y ago
    And would be even better and improve faster with more users.
- Gareth321 4y ago
  > How about we also include how MS infiltrated the education system with hidden incentives and essentially forced training in a non-free user hostile operating system to multiple genrations of people? When was the last time you used Windows? Microsoft employees a small army of user experience designers to ensure it’s a great experience. It’s not perfect, but I can do everything I need to do using the GUI. This isn’t a case of learning how to do the same thing differently. The GUI is objectively better for most consumer use cases. Linux, for better and worse, relies more heavily on CLI.
  - arminiusreturns 4y ago
    Holistic "experience" to me includes privacy protections. Windows spies on the user at every turn. GUI elements are not hard to get right. Launchers make it all even easier.
    - Gareth321 4y ago
      That's fair. For those who value privacy over ease of use, Linux is the way to go. I'm just not sure that group is very large. I don't, for example.
hedora 4y ago
Can you name one thing that a NOOB-friendly Linux requires the command line for that a technically illiterate user can accomplish in MacOS / Windows?
- Saris 4y ago
  Changing mouse acceleration settings is one I ran into, there was no option in the UI at all and google searches brought up config file edits that went completely over my head. I think it was on either Pop or Fedora KDE. In windows it will come up by typing 'mouse' into start.
  - gcbirzan 4y ago
    And there is literally no way to do it on Mac. Or, you know, disable scroll acceleration, an abomination that needs to die.
    - addicted 4y ago
      This is quite typical of the kinds of things you need to “dip into the CLI” for Linux that people complain about. Things that other OS’es usually don’t even allow. Edit: Another issue with Linux configs is that since nearly every setting can be changed through the CLI, and it’s usually a single liner at that, most online resources tend to provide the single liner that one can use to copy/paste into the CLI to achieve what they want, because the alternative is providing like 10 screenshots for 15 steps for someone to try and painstakingly replicate with their mouse or trackpad. The most common example of this is that pretty much every application will give its installation instructions as: sudo apt install thunderbird (On gnome). When you can just as well go to the software center, search thunderbird, and hit install. Or go to thunderbird.com, download the package and double click/install. However, the CLI method is clearly far superior and easier, yet it leads to complaints about having to “dip into the CLI”.
  - Volundr 4y ago
    At least on my Arch KDE setup it's System Settings -> Input Devices -> Mouse and I've got an Acceleration Profile option between Flat or Adaptive. I can also just open up the settings and search for "acceleration" to get there. I can also just pop open the "start menu" (or whatever you choose to call it for KDE) and type "acceleration" and the first option is "Mouse" I'm not sure if Windows has finer grained control in the GUI or not, but TBH I've also never ran into anyone but a techie (and very few of them) who had mouse acceleration set to anything non-standard.

arminiusreturns 4y ago

How about we also include how MS infiltrated the education system with hidden incentives and essentially forced training in a non-free user hostile operating system to multiple genrations of people? I think people had to learn Windows. They can learn Linux. The excuses are bs. Schools should teach unix/linux, and not proprietary systems. We should expect people to learn new things to be able to operate new tools. Thats ok to expect. This idea that the computer is a dumb terminal is far too prevelant thanks to phone and tablet proliferation, another tech corrupted at the outset to be user-hostile and spy on them. Desktop linix and laptop linux are 99% of the way there. Yes, you will have to learn new commands and ways of doing things. Yes, some software you are used to won't work (wine be praised). It's worth all the trouble though. Freedom isn't free, you have to actively persue it. I look around and see way too much Stockholm Syndrome going on.

toastal 4y ago
It's all software really. Most people would be fine without Adobe or Microsoft Office or Google Docs. We don't need to train kids with GitHub, Sibelius or Dorico, the list goes on. Concepts don't require application-specific training and the FOSS options are largely good enough if not better than the proprietary competitors.
- wardedVibe 4y ago
  And would be even better and improve faster with more users.
Gareth321 4y ago
> How about we also include how MS infiltrated the education system with hidden incentives and essentially forced training in a non-free user hostile operating system to multiple genrations of people? When was the last time you used Windows? Microsoft employees a small army of user experience designers to ensure it’s a great experience. It’s not perfect, but I can do everything I need to do using the GUI. This isn’t a case of learning how to do the same thing differently. The GUI is objectively better for most consumer use cases. Linux, for better and worse, relies more heavily on CLI.
- arminiusreturns 4y ago
  Holistic "experience" to me includes privacy protections. Windows spies on the user at every turn. GUI elements are not hard to get right. Launchers make it all even easier.
  - Gareth321 4y ago
    That's fair. For those who value privacy over ease of use, Linux is the way to go. I'm just not sure that group is very large. I don't, for example.

hedora 4y ago

Can you name one thing that a NOOB-friendly Linux requires the command line for that a technically illiterate user can accomplish in MacOS / Windows?

Saris 4y ago
Changing mouse acceleration settings is one I ran into, there was no option in the UI at all and google searches brought up config file edits that went completely over my head. I think it was on either Pop or Fedora KDE. In windows it will come up by typing 'mouse' into start.
- gcbirzan 4y ago
  And there is literally no way to do it on Mac. Or, you know, disable scroll acceleration, an abomination that needs to die.
  - addicted 4y ago
    This is quite typical of the kinds of things you need to “dip into the CLI” for Linux that people complain about. Things that other OS’es usually don’t even allow. Edit: Another issue with Linux configs is that since nearly every setting can be changed through the CLI, and it’s usually a single liner at that, most online resources tend to provide the single liner that one can use to copy/paste into the CLI to achieve what they want, because the alternative is providing like 10 screenshots for 15 steps for someone to try and painstakingly replicate with their mouse or trackpad. The most common example of this is that pretty much every application will give its installation instructions as: sudo apt install thunderbird (On gnome). When you can just as well go to the software center, search thunderbird, and hit install. Or go to thunderbird.com, download the package and double click/install. However, the CLI method is clearly far superior and easier, yet it leads to complaints about having to “dip into the CLI”.
- Volundr 4y ago
  At least on my Arch KDE setup it's System Settings -> Input Devices -> Mouse and I've got an Acceleration Profile option between Flat or Adaptive. I can also just open up the settings and search for "acceleration" to get there. I can also just pop open the "start menu" (or whatever you choose to call it for KDE) and type "acceleration" and the first option is "Mouse" I'm not sure if Windows has finer grained control in the GUI or not, but TBH I've also never ran into anyone but a techie (and very few of them) who had mouse acceleration set to anything non-standard.