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It is an interesting book, and worth reading. He argues, as you say, that we do things with our brains that can not be reproduced using algorithms. He bases th

It is an interesting book, and worth reading. He argues, as you say, that we do things with our brains that can not be reproduced using algorithms. He bases the argument mainly, if I recall correctly, on the incompleteness theorems: we can apprehend certain statements in mathematics as “true” even though they can’t be proven within the system of definitions and axioms in which the statements are made. However, this conclusion, whether it is ultimately defensible or not, is about replicating the human thought process with algorithms. It does not exclude the creation of machines that can do everything we can do. They just wouldn’t accomplish this through the execution of what we conventionally think of as computer programs.

rabbits77 4y ago
If you believe that current AI implementations are capable of this sort of “everything we can do but differently” then I would be curious as to why nobody has made any progress whatsoever in the understanding of consciousness? Are we to believe that humans are now able to replicate many of their own conscious abilities but with no real understanding of the mechanisms? A grid search of TensorFlow functions mashed together in different combinations could have done the same thing? I am starting to feel like I am playing a Gary Marcus role here in this thread, against a mob of overly optimistic connectionists. (that may be too generous, I imagine many in this thread have no implementation experience with AI, just a Reader’s Digest level of understanding)
- leephillips 4y ago
  > If you believe that current AI implementations are capable of this sort of “everything we can do but differently” Surely nobody believes that. > progress whatsoever in the understanding of consciousness How would we know if we’d made this progress? How do you know if any other person other than yourself is conscious? (I think this is called the “zombie problem”.)
  - rbanffy 4y ago
    How do I know I am conscious and my perception of my own consciousness isn’t an illusion itself? We currently believe consciousness is an emerging phenomenon that happens to any sufficiently complex brain that posses the ability to gather and remember knowledge about itself and the organism that holds it. I’m sure our first contact with alien intelligence will be extremely puzzling at first, then profoundly horrifying, and, finally, deeply enlightening.
    - leephillips 4y ago
      > How do I know I am conscious and my perception of my own consciousness isn’t an illusion itself? I can’t figure out what the difference would be between this “illusion” and “real” consciousness. Somewhere Sam Harris says something to the effect that our consciousness is the only thing we can be absolutely sure is real, almost by definition. If it were an illusion, then we would have to be conscious to experience the illusion.
      - rbanffy 4y ago
        > I can’t figure out what the difference would be between this “illusion” and “real” consciousness. That's the point. We can't. > If it were an illusion, then we would have to be conscious to experience the illusion. Or, at least something other than us would need to be conscious in order to experience what it'd be like being us.

rabbits77 4y ago

If you believe that current AI implementations are capable of this sort of “everything we can do but differently” then I would be curious as to why nobody has made any progress whatsoever in the understanding of consciousness? Are we to believe that humans are now able to replicate many of their own conscious abilities but with no real understanding of the mechanisms? A grid search of TensorFlow functions mashed together in different combinations could have done the same thing? I am starting to feel like I am playing a Gary Marcus role here in this thread, against a mob of overly optimistic connectionists. (that may be too generous, I imagine many in this thread have no implementation experience with AI, just a Reader’s Digest level of understanding)

leephillips 4y ago
> If you believe that current AI implementations are capable of this sort of “everything we can do but differently” Surely nobody believes that. > progress whatsoever in the understanding of consciousness How would we know if we’d made this progress? How do you know if any other person other than yourself is conscious? (I think this is called the “zombie problem”.)
- rbanffy 4y ago
  How do I know I am conscious and my perception of my own consciousness isn’t an illusion itself? We currently believe consciousness is an emerging phenomenon that happens to any sufficiently complex brain that posses the ability to gather and remember knowledge about itself and the organism that holds it. I’m sure our first contact with alien intelligence will be extremely puzzling at first, then profoundly horrifying, and, finally, deeply enlightening.
  - leephillips 4y ago
    > How do I know I am conscious and my perception of my own consciousness isn’t an illusion itself? I can’t figure out what the difference would be between this “illusion” and “real” consciousness. Somewhere Sam Harris says something to the effect that our consciousness is the only thing we can be absolutely sure is real, almost by definition. If it were an illusion, then we would have to be conscious to experience the illusion.
    - rbanffy 4y ago
      > I can’t figure out what the difference would be between this “illusion” and “real” consciousness. That's the point. We can't. > If it were an illusion, then we would have to be conscious to experience the illusion. Or, at least something other than us would need to be conscious in order to experience what it'd be like being us.