5 ms·

This is the wrong way to go, if the UI is so bad it requires a course, then the problem is clearly the tool.

by nmz 4y ago

olalonde 4y ago
How do you reconcile that with Vim's massive popularity? Surely, Vim users are aware that there are many "easy to learn" editors.
- nmz 4y ago
  I don't, I belittle it whenever I can. but I'm just a stranger on the internet. pay no attention to me.
Silica6149 4y ago
It can also be a boon. One of the things some vim users like is always being able to discover something new, after using it for years. I'm not really in this camp though, I would prefer vim commands to somehow be more "discoverable". Much easier said than done, though.
- wruza 4y ago
  What were the last three things that you discovered in your editor?
  - blep_ 4y ago
    In Helix: - space, k for documentation on the thing under the cursor - space, [yp] for copying/pasting to the system clipboard - m, [ai], [acfo] for selecting around/in language structures This is easy because Helix has a very fast command palette thing, and a lot of its commands are behind consistent prefixes, so if you know `mi(` for selecting within parentheses, you can do `mi` to ask "what other things can I select within?"
_qua 4y ago
This is a wild take. I'm not quite sure how you would go about changing it into something "better" without funadmentally destroying its functionality. The "UI" of driving a car or a jet requires "a course" but it doesn't meant that they're bad.
- nmz 4y ago
  vis is a step in the right direction, at least in terms of modal editing.
- Boltgolt 4y ago
  What a strange comparison. Driving an (automatic) car can be learned through trail and error in no time at all. It's the external factors like other traffic that are hard to get right.
dimensional_dan 4y ago
You're just assuming that one set of optimisations are the most important for everyone in UI design. Good UI design doesn't state that it is always the case that people should be able to use it intuitively. Sometimes enhanced performance, speed, and focus over the long term are optimised over intuitiveness. This is the case for Vim. There is room in the world for both sets of optimisations.
- nmz 4y ago
  I do not see how performance, speed and focus are a characteristic of vim. if anything, that's the one thing it lacks.
JulianWasTaken 4y ago
I think this is the wrong way to think about computing, though I sympathize, because I also used to think this way until I reflected on a podcast I'd heard about how when the computer mouse was invented, it's little known that a second very sci-fy-y device was also intended to be used as a peripheral, one which you put on your other hand like a glove and moved in all sorts of ways in order to direct your computer. Ultimately this device didn't catch on, but it's not necessarily the case that just because something isn't trivial to start using that it's bad -- on the contrary, both kinds of tools are useful. Tools which are eminently transparent in how you use them are great to get started, and to continue with if you don't want to spend any more time. But so are tools which you need to actively invest effort into using. These can unlock ways of using something which are more powerful and rely on the time you put in to learn them -- true for a computer, but there are plenty of other devices in the world where this is the case too.
caseymarquis 4y ago
I take it you're not a musician?
- nmz 4y ago
  Plenty of musicians made it big with easier to use tools many people made fun of. like fruity loops. more intuitive interfaces is not a demerit, it was the point all along.
- chongli 4y ago
  Or a pilot. Or an artist. Or a mathematician. Or basically anything difficult. This is the price we pay for having easy-to-use computers. People have developed an expectation that everything should be easy and if it's not easy for beginners then it's bad. Some things are just hard! That doesn't make them bad. Some of the best things in life actually take years of study to learn.
  - nmz 4y ago
    Nice of you to give mathematician as an example, considering we no longer do math with roman numbers. Artists will do what they do, just for the hell of it. given that art is expression, doing something hard like painting with your toes could be considered art. The key is simplication, and its something I notice programmers refuse to allow in their profession.
stackbutterflow 4y ago
Good UI is not always optimizing for beginners. If you're using a tool for 8 hours a day, everyday, for years, you won't be a beginner for very long. The program must be optimized for the people who are going to use it for thousands of hours. Not for the users who are heard about vim yesterday.
- hasperdi 4y ago
  Hard to learn doesn't mean good.
Otek 4y ago
Which code editor does NOT have an online course on how to use it? Go ahead, type "IntelliJ course" or "VS Code tutorial" and see hundreds different videos.
- nmz 4y ago
  The problem is how much time do you HAVE to sink into just to learn a tool? If you have a tool with the same functionality and requires less time sink, then the previous tool is obsolete and should be tossed away.

This is the wrong way to go, if the UI is so bad it requires a course, then the problem is clearly the tool.

by nmz 4y ago

This is the wrong way to go, if the UI is so bad it requires a course, then the problem is clearly the tool.

How do you reconcile that with Vim's massive popularity? Surely, Vim users are aware that there are many "easy to learn" editors.

nmz 4y ago
I don't, I belittle it whenever I can. but I'm just a stranger on the internet. pay no attention to me.

Silica6149 4y ago

It can also be a boon. One of the things some vim users like is always being able to discover something new, after using it for years. I'm not really in this camp though, I would prefer vim commands to somehow be more "discoverable". Much easier said than done, though.

wruza 4y ago
What were the last three things that you discovered in your editor?
- blep_ 4y ago
  In Helix: - space, k for documentation on the thing under the cursor - space, [yp] for copying/pasting to the system clipboard - m, [ai], [acfo] for selecting around/in language structures This is easy because Helix has a very fast command palette thing, and a lot of its commands are behind consistent prefixes, so if you know `mi(` for selecting within parentheses, you can do `mi` to ask "what other things can I select within?"

_qua 4y ago

This is a wild take. I'm not quite sure how you would go about changing it into something "better" without funadmentally destroying its functionality. The "UI" of driving a car or a jet requires "a course" but it doesn't meant that they're bad.

nmz 4y ago
vis is a step in the right direction, at least in terms of modal editing.
Boltgolt 4y ago
What a strange comparison. Driving an (automatic) car can be learned through trail and error in no time at all. It's the external factors like other traffic that are hard to get right.

dimensional_dan 4y ago

You're just assuming that one set of optimisations are the most important for everyone in UI design. Good UI design doesn't state that it is always the case that people should be able to use it intuitively. Sometimes enhanced performance, speed, and focus over the long term are optimised over intuitiveness. This is the case for Vim. There is room in the world for both sets of optimisations.

nmz 4y ago
I do not see how performance, speed and focus are a characteristic of vim. if anything, that's the one thing it lacks.

JulianWasTaken 4y ago

I think this is the wrong way to think about computing, though I sympathize, because I also used to think this way until I reflected on a podcast I'd heard about how when the computer mouse was invented, it's little known that a second very sci-fy-y device was also intended to be used as a peripheral, one which you put on your other hand like a glove and moved in all sorts of ways in order to direct your computer. Ultimately this device didn't catch on, but it's not necessarily the case that just because something isn't trivial to start using that it's bad -- on the contrary, both kinds of tools are useful. Tools which are eminently transparent in how you use them are great to get started, and to continue with if you don't want to spend any more time. But so are tools which you need to actively invest effort into using. These can unlock ways of using something which are more powerful and rely on the time you put in to learn them -- true for a computer, but there are plenty of other devices in the world where this is the case too.

caseymarquis 4y ago

I take it you're not a musician?

nmz 4y ago
Plenty of musicians made it big with easier to use tools many people made fun of. like fruity loops. more intuitive interfaces is not a demerit, it was the point all along.
chongli 4y ago
Or a pilot. Or an artist. Or a mathematician. Or basically anything difficult. This is the price we pay for having easy-to-use computers. People have developed an expectation that everything should be easy and if it's not easy for beginners then it's bad. Some things are just hard! That doesn't make them bad. Some of the best things in life actually take years of study to learn.
- nmz 4y ago
  Nice of you to give mathematician as an example, considering we no longer do math with roman numbers. Artists will do what they do, just for the hell of it. given that art is expression, doing something hard like painting with your toes could be considered art. The key is simplication, and its something I notice programmers refuse to allow in their profession.

stackbutterflow 4y ago

Good UI is not always optimizing for beginners. If you're using a tool for 8 hours a day, everyday, for years, you won't be a beginner for very long. The program must be optimized for the people who are going to use it for thousands of hours. Not for the users who are heard about vim yesterday.

hasperdi 4y ago
Hard to learn doesn't mean good.

Otek 4y ago

Which code editor does NOT have an online course on how to use it? Go ahead, type "IntelliJ course" or "VS Code tutorial" and see hundreds different videos.

nmz 4y ago
The problem is how much time do you HAVE to sink into just to learn a tool? If you have a tool with the same functionality and requires less time sink, then the previous tool is obsolete and should be tossed away.