4 ms·

This may be a little elitist, but if you're not going to use vim the way it's really made to be used, why even bother? I get that `mouse=a` makes it more famili

This may be a little elitist, but if you're not going to use vim the way it's really made to be used, why even bother? I get that `mouse=a` makes it more familiar, but if you're always going to reach for your mouse, you're never going to really get used to the motions.

effakcuL 4y ago
Tbh, one of the biggest issues with vim for me is, that all my coworkers do not use it. When I have to explain something to them, they are completely oblivious as to how they navigate vim without the mouse. So enabling mouse is one of the most important things for me
MatthiasPortzel 4y ago
I use Vim as a secondary editor, when I need to quickly edit a file in my terminal or over an SSH session. I'm not interested in it replacing my primary IDE. If you're going to disable the mouse and the arrow keys and really commit to the home row, more power to you. That is probably the best way to master Vim. But I think a significant number of people looking at Vim tutorials have never used the editor, and I think they deserve to know that there is an easy way to make the editor more comfortable and more familiar. Someone down-thread used a metaphor to say 'the best way to learn a new language is by immersion' which is something I would agree with. But opening Vim for the first time feels like being dropped into a foreign country where no one speaks your language. Imagine how frustrated you would be to find that the people there actually do speak a language that you know, they're just refusing to understand you because you haven't issued the magic words, "set mouse=a"
- delusional 4y ago
  That's certainly valid. I've had friends throughout the years that used vim as you would nano. I don't think vim is any good when you use it like that since the more advanced features just get in your way, but if it works for you then that's cool. The people who seek out a "learn vim" course are just not that kind of people. In this case you've signed up for a course on how to speak Spanish only to ask the teacher to not speak Spanish.
hyperhopper 4y ago
You're conflating learning aids with actual usage. Having mouse support gives you a superset of functionality. Often this can be useful, like if you have on your hand on the mouse using another application. Saying "why even bother" using vim if you add features just makes no sense.
Silica6149 4y ago
I think they were speaking from a total beginner's perspective, and how to get them up to speed as fast as possible. I felt the same way when first learning vim, since it was completely different from the code editors I'd used in the past, it was strange not being able to use the mouse in the way I was used to.
- delusional 4y ago
  I get that, but that strangeness is what pushes you to learn. I find that if I can do something suboptimal, but familiar, it takes way longer for me to change my habits because my subconscious keeps thinking in terms of the familiar. I find it much more useful to remove the ability to even do the wrong thing, than to simply try and will myself to do the right one.
  - Silica6149 4y ago
    Oh yes, when I was trying to fully learn vim, I had the mentality that I could just practice it for 10 minutes a day and be able to use it while editing code. The remaining time I would edit code like normal with vscode, so it turned out that I wasn't really able to pick up vim and use it well. It wasn't until I switched to a different keyboard layout that I decided to move over to vim cold turkey, and was actually able to learn vim and retain it.
  - superdisk 4y ago
    I agree. When I started at my first internship, one of the developers (and now a close friend) put layers of tape over the arrow keys so I couldn't use them. Took a week of pain and then I never went back.
  - chongli 4y ago
    I get that, but that strangeness is what pushes you to learn. Yes, exactly. This is analogous to travelling to another country and hoping to learn the local language by immersion. If you then meet people that speak your language you run the risk of only hanging out with your little expat group and never immersing yourself in the local culture. You can end up spending years there and never learning the language.
manx 4y ago
Vim was designed on qwerty keyboards. On other layouts (e.g. neo2) hjkl are not in a row.
- spc476 4y ago
  Specifically, it was designed on the ADM3A keyboard, which had the arrows printed on the H, J, K and L keys. Also of note is the key in the upper right, which is labeled with "HOME", ~ and ^ (which explains why shells use "~/" to represent the users home directory). And while I'm diving into history here, vi (which stands for "visual") was a modification of "ex" to use the newfangled "video terminal" instead of the battle tested teletype machine.
- opan 4y ago
  Very minor issue, speaking as someone who switched to dvorak and then workman while continuing to use vim daily. No keys remapped. It's just not even an issue. Those letters still make those movements. They're in different spots, but I already had to get used to the new spots for writing words in the first place. Doesn't even feel slower. IIRC dvorak even happens to split the vertical and horizontal movements between hands but while keeping them near each other, almost like RC car controls. Workman is comparatively a bit crazier with its placement, but it still doesn't bother me.
- danielvaughn 4y ago
  That's somewhat comforting to know. I'm in the beginning stages of building out a keyboard-heavy application, and I keep wondering about how to support different keyboard types. I suppose it's not possible to satisfy all customers if even Vim can't do it.
  - maleldil 4y ago
    Just support QWERTY but allow the user to remap everything. Even among programmers, the share of people that use alt layouts is so small that is not worth your time.
    - Lio 4y ago

effakcuL 4y ago

Tbh, one of the biggest issues with vim for me is, that all my coworkers do not use it. When I have to explain something to them, they are completely oblivious as to how they navigate vim without the mouse. So enabling mouse is one of the most important things for me

MatthiasPortzel 4y ago

I use Vim as a secondary editor, when I need to quickly edit a file in my terminal or over an SSH session. I'm not interested in it replacing my primary IDE. If you're going to disable the mouse and the arrow keys and really commit to the home row, more power to you. That is probably the best way to master Vim. But I think a significant number of people looking at Vim tutorials have never used the editor, and I think they deserve to know that there is an easy way to make the editor more comfortable and more familiar. Someone down-thread used a metaphor to say 'the best way to learn a new language is by immersion' which is something I would agree with. But opening Vim for the first time feels like being dropped into a foreign country where no one speaks your language. Imagine how frustrated you would be to find that the people there actually do speak a language that you know, they're just refusing to understand you because you haven't issued the magic words, "set mouse=a"

delusional 4y ago
That's certainly valid. I've had friends throughout the years that used vim as you would nano. I don't think vim is any good when you use it like that since the more advanced features just get in your way, but if it works for you then that's cool. The people who seek out a "learn vim" course are just not that kind of people. In this case you've signed up for a course on how to speak Spanish only to ask the teacher to not speak Spanish.

hyperhopper 4y ago

You're conflating learning aids with actual usage. Having mouse support gives you a superset of functionality. Often this can be useful, like if you have on your hand on the mouse using another application. Saying "why even bother" using vim if you add features just makes no sense.

Silica6149 4y ago

I think they were speaking from a total beginner's perspective, and how to get them up to speed as fast as possible. I felt the same way when first learning vim, since it was completely different from the code editors I'd used in the past, it was strange not being able to use the mouse in the way I was used to.

delusional 4y ago
I get that, but that strangeness is what pushes you to learn. I find that if I can do something suboptimal, but familiar, it takes way longer for me to change my habits because my subconscious keeps thinking in terms of the familiar. I find it much more useful to remove the ability to even do the wrong thing, than to simply try and will myself to do the right one.
- Silica6149 4y ago
  Oh yes, when I was trying to fully learn vim, I had the mentality that I could just practice it for 10 minutes a day and be able to use it while editing code. The remaining time I would edit code like normal with vscode, so it turned out that I wasn't really able to pick up vim and use it well. It wasn't until I switched to a different keyboard layout that I decided to move over to vim cold turkey, and was actually able to learn vim and retain it.
- superdisk 4y ago
  I agree. When I started at my first internship, one of the developers (and now a close friend) put layers of tape over the arrow keys so I couldn't use them. Took a week of pain and then I never went back.
- chongli 4y ago
  I get that, but that strangeness is what pushes you to learn. Yes, exactly. This is analogous to travelling to another country and hoping to learn the local language by immersion. If you then meet people that speak your language you run the risk of only hanging out with your little expat group and never immersing yourself in the local culture. You can end up spending years there and never learning the language.

manx 4y ago

Vim was designed on qwerty keyboards. On other layouts (e.g. neo2) hjkl are not in a row.

spc476 4y ago
Specifically, it was designed on the ADM3A keyboard, which had the arrows printed on the H, J, K and L keys. Also of note is the key in the upper right, which is labeled with "HOME", ~ and ^ (which explains why shells use "~/" to represent the users home directory). And while I'm diving into history here, vi (which stands for "visual") was a modification of "ex" to use the newfangled "video terminal" instead of the battle tested teletype machine.
opan 4y ago
Very minor issue, speaking as someone who switched to dvorak and then workman while continuing to use vim daily. No keys remapped. It's just not even an issue. Those letters still make those movements. They're in different spots, but I already had to get used to the new spots for writing words in the first place. Doesn't even feel slower. IIRC dvorak even happens to split the vertical and horizontal movements between hands but while keeping them near each other, almost like RC car controls. Workman is comparatively a bit crazier with its placement, but it still doesn't bother me.
danielvaughn 4y ago
That's somewhat comforting to know. I'm in the beginning stages of building out a keyboard-heavy application, and I keep wondering about how to support different keyboard types. I suppose it's not possible to satisfy all customers if even Vim can't do it.
- maleldil 4y ago
  Just support QWERTY but allow the user to remap everything. Even among programmers, the share of people that use alt layouts is so small that is not worth your time.
  - Lio 4y ago