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From my first hand experience in managing teams, this article resonates well. The biggest problem my company sees is a low level of trust between team members n

From my first hand experience in managing teams, this article resonates well. The biggest problem my company sees is a low level of trust between team members now that a lot of the tenured engineers have left and new ones joined in a fully remote environment. More than half the team hasn’t met colleagues in person and the culture feels very transactional with shallow bonds, compared to old days when all of us were in office. Organizing social events on Zoom very contrived and awkward. Chatting for 5 min at a water cooler was better to actually get to know someone and build trust. Of course, the company has no budget for physically bringing people together. Fully remote doesn’t work and I am willing to bet on companies with some in-office presence beating fully remote companies in the long run.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
>culture feels very transactional with shallow bonds, compared to old days when all of us were in office. Seems like the underlings and management are on the same page now.
- Aromasin 4y ago
  I'm still very much an underling, and I resonate with the shallow bonds comment. At my previous role, I was friends with my colleagues. We went to the pub together after work, had each other around for parties, and invited each other to our weddings. Doing any of the above with my current team seems unimaginable - not because I don't like them, but because we've never had the opportunity to break that trust barrier over Teams or Zoom.
  - dickersnoodle 4y ago
    What "trust barrier"?
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    N=1. Colleagues are not my friends. We share a revenue source and common body of work, but my friends are outside of work for a reason. Under exceptional circumstances, a friendship bond that lasts beyond an employer might be established, but in my 20+ years in tech, it’s happened so few times I can count on one hand. And I prefer it that way.
    - RestlessMind 4y ago
      I don’t think your parent commenter is talking about making “friends” at work. It came across as an environment with “friendly colleagues”, which is amazing to have and so far I haven’t seen those kind of work relations being built purely on Zoom.
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        Perhaps I’m just not seeing the benefit. You can absolutely have friendly, polite, cordial colleagues remote/over Zoom without being friends, no? In the decade I’ve been remote, across several orgs, this has been my experience. Friendly but not friends. A friend is someone I can expect to be there when I ask for or need personal help (and vice versa), not someone who shares their beer or hobby preferences over a Zoom 1:1. Deep bonds are forged in meaningful shared struggle (see military bootcamp for an example, where you are broken down and built back up together), not ephemeral employment.
        toomuchtodo 4y ago
        Relevant thread to add to my thesis: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32040213 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32040213 https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/jul/09/when-it-comes-to-banter-men-are-in-their-element-but-that-is-no-foundation-for-lasting-friendship https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/jul/09/when-it...
        thdespou 4y ago
        Second that.If you want friends then join a meetup or a club where you can talk about your interests and common goals. Work colleagues share only one interest which is the success of the business which does not necessarily mean that you would be having the same feelings as with a true friendship.
malermeister 4y ago
> the culture feels very transactional Work should be transactional. It is a transaction. Labor is exchanged for money. Full remote frees us from all the bullshit and let's us focus on just doing the work we're getting paid for. "Deep culture" = bad work/life balance.
- Closi 4y ago
  Hard disagree. There is a difference between there being a transaction (labour in exchange for money) and it being purely transactional. Take a haircut for instance, it is transactional (you exchange money for a haircut) but often people stick with the same hairdresser for years - e.g. because they have a relationship, have built trust, and often have built a friendship e.t.c. and similarly hairdressers seem to enjoy having these bonds both with their repeat customers and their coworkers. Hairdressers could always work in silence in single-customer booths on their own, but they always seem to be together and chat to each other and customers in the open. This isn't purely transactional - there is a formed culture here "i.e. 'the way we do things is that we chat and have fun while we cut hair'" In a work context: The best performing companies and teams typically have a deep sense of culture and shared-purpose. There is a reason why corporate vision/mission/values are created - because they are effective tools to drive large organizations together in a cohesive way. I personally find that there is a huge personal difference working on a team that has great bonds and a great culture vs a team that doesn't. Working on a team without a sense of belonging and without great relationships with my coworkers sucks for me personally. Now someone might say "well you can still form relationships with coworkers remotely" - in which case that IS culture and something more than transactional, the argument is just that this is much more difficult to form with everyone being remote.
  - jen20 4y ago
    > Hairdressers could always work in silence I would absolutely give repeat business to any barber shop whose selling point was “we won’t try to talk to you about last night’s game (you didn’t see) of a sport you don’t care about”. The would be a substantial improvement on the status quo.
- 4y ago
dickersnoodle 4y ago
Hmm. "A low level of trust between team members" sounds like remote work exposed some big defects in your company culture that should be addressed first. Why did "a lot of the tenured engineers" leave? Why weren't they doing more to mentor the newer ones to facilitate knowledge and "lore" transfer? (And don't tell me it can't be done online, because it absolutely can.)
- RestlessMind 4y ago
  If it was limited to my own company, I’d definitely blame it on our culture. But so far, based on discussions with a few dozen friends and colleagues, everyone seems to be missing the in-person interaction while not missing the commute. The general consensus wants a hybrid setup with a few days from home and few days from office. As for why tenured engineers left, they all had spent 3-5 years in this company and it was time to move on just like any other shop in tech. That seems in line with overall tech sector. And it is borderline impossible to build camaraderie or a well bonded team purely online without any in person interaction for months or years. If you think you have seen that, please share further details about what worked and the name of the company. I am very much interested in learning how to build great teams online. So far, outcomes from even the best practices don’t seem to hold a candle when compared against the in-office experience.
  - popularonion 4y ago
    >And it is borderline impossible to build camaraderie or a well bonded team purely online without any in person interaction for months or years. If you want to bond with your employees, find one who’s into MMORPGs or used to be - shouldn’t be too hard in this industry. They have hours and hours of stories to tell you about.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

lotsofpulp 4y ago

>culture feels very transactional with shallow bonds, compared to old days when all of us were in office. Seems like the underlings and management are on the same page now.

Aromasin 4y ago
I'm still very much an underling, and I resonate with the shallow bonds comment. At my previous role, I was friends with my colleagues. We went to the pub together after work, had each other around for parties, and invited each other to our weddings. Doing any of the above with my current team seems unimaginable - not because I don't like them, but because we've never had the opportunity to break that trust barrier over Teams or Zoom.
- dickersnoodle 4y ago
  What "trust barrier"?
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  N=1. Colleagues are not my friends. We share a revenue source and common body of work, but my friends are outside of work for a reason. Under exceptional circumstances, a friendship bond that lasts beyond an employer might be established, but in my 20+ years in tech, it’s happened so few times I can count on one hand. And I prefer it that way.
  - RestlessMind 4y ago
    I don’t think your parent commenter is talking about making “friends” at work. It came across as an environment with “friendly colleagues”, which is amazing to have and so far I haven’t seen those kind of work relations being built purely on Zoom.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      Perhaps I’m just not seeing the benefit. You can absolutely have friendly, polite, cordial colleagues remote/over Zoom without being friends, no? In the decade I’ve been remote, across several orgs, this has been my experience. Friendly but not friends. A friend is someone I can expect to be there when I ask for or need personal help (and vice versa), not someone who shares their beer or hobby preferences over a Zoom 1:1. Deep bonds are forged in meaningful shared struggle (see military bootcamp for an example, where you are broken down and built back up together), not ephemeral employment.
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        Relevant thread to add to my thesis: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32040213 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32040213 https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/jul/09/when-it-comes-to-banter-men-are-in-their-element-but-that-is-no-foundation-for-lasting-friendship https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/jul/09/when-it...
      - thdespou 4y ago
        Second that.If you want friends then join a meetup or a club where you can talk about your interests and common goals. Work colleagues share only one interest which is the success of the business which does not necessarily mean that you would be having the same feelings as with a true friendship.

malermeister 4y ago

> the culture feels very transactional Work should be transactional. It is a transaction. Labor is exchanged for money. Full remote frees us from all the bullshit and let's us focus on just doing the work we're getting paid for. "Deep culture" = bad work/life balance.

Closi 4y ago
Hard disagree. There is a difference between there being a transaction (labour in exchange for money) and it being purely transactional. Take a haircut for instance, it is transactional (you exchange money for a haircut) but often people stick with the same hairdresser for years - e.g. because they have a relationship, have built trust, and often have built a friendship e.t.c. and similarly hairdressers seem to enjoy having these bonds both with their repeat customers and their coworkers. Hairdressers could always work in silence in single-customer booths on their own, but they always seem to be together and chat to each other and customers in the open. This isn't purely transactional - there is a formed culture here "i.e. 'the way we do things is that we chat and have fun while we cut hair'" In a work context: The best performing companies and teams typically have a deep sense of culture and shared-purpose. There is a reason why corporate vision/mission/values are created - because they are effective tools to drive large organizations together in a cohesive way. I personally find that there is a huge personal difference working on a team that has great bonds and a great culture vs a team that doesn't. Working on a team without a sense of belonging and without great relationships with my coworkers sucks for me personally. Now someone might say "well you can still form relationships with coworkers remotely" - in which case that IS culture and something more than transactional, the argument is just that this is much more difficult to form with everyone being remote.
- jen20 4y ago
  > Hairdressers could always work in silence I would absolutely give repeat business to any barber shop whose selling point was “we won’t try to talk to you about last night’s game (you didn’t see) of a sport you don’t care about”. The would be a substantial improvement on the status quo.
4y ago

dickersnoodle 4y ago

Hmm. "A low level of trust between team members" sounds like remote work exposed some big defects in your company culture that should be addressed first. Why did "a lot of the tenured engineers" leave? Why weren't they doing more to mentor the newer ones to facilitate knowledge and "lore" transfer? (And don't tell me it can't be done online, because it absolutely can.)

RestlessMind 4y ago
If it was limited to my own company, I’d definitely blame it on our culture. But so far, based on discussions with a few dozen friends and colleagues, everyone seems to be missing the in-person interaction while not missing the commute. The general consensus wants a hybrid setup with a few days from home and few days from office. As for why tenured engineers left, they all had spent 3-5 years in this company and it was time to move on just like any other shop in tech. That seems in line with overall tech sector. And it is borderline impossible to build camaraderie or a well bonded team purely online without any in person interaction for months or years. If you think you have seen that, please share further details about what worked and the name of the company. I am very much interested in learning how to build great teams online. So far, outcomes from even the best practices don’t seem to hold a candle when compared against the in-office experience.
- popularonion 4y ago
  >And it is borderline impossible to build camaraderie or a well bonded team purely online without any in person interaction for months or years. If you want to bond with your employees, find one who’s into MMORPGs or used to be - shouldn’t be too hard in this industry. They have hours and hours of stories to tell you about.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]