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I am not knowledgeable about this, but I wonder how it interfaces with existing logistics. The pictured vehicles look dramatically different in size and form f

I am not knowledgeable about this, but I wonder how it interfaces with existing logistics. The pictured vehicles look dramatically different in size and form factor than the standard Intermodal container [1] or even the ubiquitous (and smaller) US military Quadcon/Tricon/Bicon boxes. Will items have to be repackaged from standard international shipping containers into these autonomous cargo vehicles? What are the security (ie insurance) considerations? Also, given some of the deadly tunnel fires originated in freight ignition and combustion, what are the considerations for fire management? [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_container https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_container [2] The Deadly Mont Blanc Tunnel Fire 1999 (Documentary) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcLaogBviIA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcLaogBviIA

ThePadawan 4y ago
> Also, given some of the deadly tunnel fires originated in freight ignition and combustion, what are the considerations for fire management? There are 0 humans in these tunnels. If a fire broke out, why wouldn't slamming shut all fire doors in that section work?
- magic_hamster 4y ago
  I imagine the tunnel and cars will be serviceable so there might be people in there from time to time.
  - _nalply 4y ago
    But they would have received training to react correctly in case of fire.
ThePadawan 4y ago
Looks to me like the pods could carry 1 or 2 EUR pallets. [0] These are absolutely ubiquitous in logistics in Europe. If you pick up a low-margin product like toilet paper or potting soil in the supermarket or hardware store, it will be sitting on a EUR pallet. Between packed in a factory somewhere and sold to the end customer, all that needs to happen is to remove the outer protective wrapping (that has shipping/tracking bar codes on it). Edit: This (2016) article has some design renderings, showing 2 EUR pallets per pod [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EUR-pallet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EUR-pallet [1] https://www.limmattalerzeitung.ch/wirtschaft/das-wird-die-logistik-in-der-schweiz-auf-den-kopf-stellen-ld.1289041 https://www.limmattalerzeitung.ch/wirtschaft/das-wird-die-lo...
- cm2187 4y ago
  that still means you need to unload the pallets from a container and reload them on each side of the tunnel. You must have a really good compelling reason to do so vs moving the container wholesale.
  - ThePadawan 4y ago
    Exactly! That reason is that the process you describe takes time and space, both of which are much much cheaper outside of cities than inside of them.
  - pawsforthought 4y ago
    To quote directly from the project FAQ: > Efficient micro-distribution in urban areas is a nice idea, but so far there has not been a single city logistics project that has functioned in reality. How is CST city logistics going to fare any better? > In the CST system, the goods are already sorted and bundled by destination when transported in the tunnel. This bundling process means that they are optimally prepared for the subsequent micro-distribution process. At the hub, the goods simply need to be loaded onto appropriate vehicles – depending on the size, volume and destination, these are courier bikes, motorbikes or small delivery vans. This guarantees coordinated deliveries to sales outlets and end consumers, rather than each supplier delivering their goods individually. Unbundling from containers to pallets only needs to happen at one end of the tunnel — at an out-of-town logistics center as a sibling comment suggests.
    - Closi 4y ago
      > This guarantees coordinated deliveries to sales outlets and end consumers, rather than each supplier delivering their goods individually. It's worth noting that most companies delivering pallets don't typically deliver their goods by themselves - usually for palletised goods there is a "pallet network" where the pallets are transferred to a central hub and then consolidated onto a mixed multi-customer load to go to a particular territory. In the UK these pallet networks are usually membership organisations formed by various regional transport operators (see Pallex as an example). As a member you will typically pick up any goods from companies in your local area that want nationwide delivery, deliver those goods to the central hub, and then in return are given a mixed-load of goods to be delivered back to your postcode area. The bigger scale a single network has the cheaper deliveries are (because they will therefore be picking up and delivering the same volume to a smaller territory, so the 'inter-drop distance' is smaller). Similarly there are van networks, where if you want to deliver something by van from the south of the country to the north of the country, you can give this to a third party logistics provider who will then consolidate your goods with other providers at a hub, place a mixed lorry-load of goods up to the north of the country, and will then organise a mixed-customer van route from the hub. This effectively seems like a pallet network without the central hub. A great idea - but the idea that all suppliers deliver their goods individually is inaccurate.
occz 4y ago
Wasn't Mont Blanc speculated to be caused by someone throwing a cigarette out a window which caused the fuel in a vehicle to combust? Very few of the circumstances of Mont Blanc would be true in this scenario - no combustion engine vehicles, no humans to throw cigarettes and so on. As the other commenter mentioned, you could probably just seal the tunnel entirely in the unlikely case of a fire, since there are no humans to suffocate in the tunnels.
- cm2187 4y ago
  A lot of freight needs to be cooled, plus batteries. So I assume you will have things in there that have the potential to catch fire.
  - ThePadawan 4y ago
    I generally concur, but actually couldn't find any detail on if the pods have significant batteries. Seeing as they run on a non-human-accessible, closed-loop, underground network, they could really run on pantograph or third rail power.
    - cm2187 4y ago
      sorry, by batteries I meant transporting batteries. Those are fire hazards.

ThePadawan 4y ago

> Also, given some of the deadly tunnel fires originated in freight ignition and combustion, what are the considerations for fire management? There are 0 humans in these tunnels. If a fire broke out, why wouldn't slamming shut all fire doors in that section work?

magic_hamster 4y ago
I imagine the tunnel and cars will be serviceable so there might be people in there from time to time.
- _nalply 4y ago
  But they would have received training to react correctly in case of fire.

ThePadawan 4y ago

Looks to me like the pods could carry 1 or 2 EUR pallets. [0] These are absolutely ubiquitous in logistics in Europe. If you pick up a low-margin product like toilet paper or potting soil in the supermarket or hardware store, it will be sitting on a EUR pallet. Between packed in a factory somewhere and sold to the end customer, all that needs to happen is to remove the outer protective wrapping (that has shipping/tracking bar codes on it). Edit: This (2016) article has some design renderings, showing 2 EUR pallets per pod [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EUR-pallet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EUR-pallet [1] https://www.limmattalerzeitung.ch/wirtschaft/das-wird-die-logistik-in-der-schweiz-auf-den-kopf-stellen-ld.1289041 https://www.limmattalerzeitung.ch/wirtschaft/das-wird-die-lo...

cm2187 4y ago
that still means you need to unload the pallets from a container and reload them on each side of the tunnel. You must have a really good compelling reason to do so vs moving the container wholesale.
- ThePadawan 4y ago
  Exactly! That reason is that the process you describe takes time and space, both of which are much much cheaper outside of cities than inside of them.
- pawsforthought 4y ago
  To quote directly from the project FAQ: > Efficient micro-distribution in urban areas is a nice idea, but so far there has not been a single city logistics project that has functioned in reality. How is CST city logistics going to fare any better? > In the CST system, the goods are already sorted and bundled by destination when transported in the tunnel. This bundling process means that they are optimally prepared for the subsequent micro-distribution process. At the hub, the goods simply need to be loaded onto appropriate vehicles – depending on the size, volume and destination, these are courier bikes, motorbikes or small delivery vans. This guarantees coordinated deliveries to sales outlets and end consumers, rather than each supplier delivering their goods individually. Unbundling from containers to pallets only needs to happen at one end of the tunnel — at an out-of-town logistics center as a sibling comment suggests.
  - Closi 4y ago
    > This guarantees coordinated deliveries to sales outlets and end consumers, rather than each supplier delivering their goods individually. It's worth noting that most companies delivering pallets don't typically deliver their goods by themselves - usually for palletised goods there is a "pallet network" where the pallets are transferred to a central hub and then consolidated onto a mixed multi-customer load to go to a particular territory. In the UK these pallet networks are usually membership organisations formed by various regional transport operators (see Pallex as an example). As a member you will typically pick up any goods from companies in your local area that want nationwide delivery, deliver those goods to the central hub, and then in return are given a mixed-load of goods to be delivered back to your postcode area. The bigger scale a single network has the cheaper deliveries are (because they will therefore be picking up and delivering the same volume to a smaller territory, so the 'inter-drop distance' is smaller). Similarly there are van networks, where if you want to deliver something by van from the south of the country to the north of the country, you can give this to a third party logistics provider who will then consolidate your goods with other providers at a hub, place a mixed lorry-load of goods up to the north of the country, and will then organise a mixed-customer van route from the hub. This effectively seems like a pallet network without the central hub. A great idea - but the idea that all suppliers deliver their goods individually is inaccurate.

occz 4y ago

Wasn't Mont Blanc speculated to be caused by someone throwing a cigarette out a window which caused the fuel in a vehicle to combust? Very few of the circumstances of Mont Blanc would be true in this scenario - no combustion engine vehicles, no humans to throw cigarettes and so on. As the other commenter mentioned, you could probably just seal the tunnel entirely in the unlikely case of a fire, since there are no humans to suffocate in the tunnels.

cm2187 4y ago
A lot of freight needs to be cooled, plus batteries. So I assume you will have things in there that have the potential to catch fire.
- ThePadawan 4y ago
  I generally concur, but actually couldn't find any detail on if the pods have significant batteries. Seeing as they run on a non-human-accessible, closed-loop, underground network, they could really run on pantograph or third rail power.
  - cm2187 4y ago
    sorry, by batteries I meant transporting batteries. Those are fire hazards.