4 ms·

Right. My point is - "How so many Services across Canada went down as they never designed their Services to overcome the network outage ? "

wmf 4y ago
For things like ATMs I think having two network connections is pretty expensive. Companies also like to use "strategic outsourcing" where they use the same ISP for all their locations which results in the systemic outages we're seeing now.
- avi_vallarapu 4y ago
  Well, the cost of outage vs the cost to maintain multiple ISP's is the key decision factor here.
ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
Again as I wrote elsewhere it's because Canada is a deeply mediocre country just getting by with others help and technology. Interac the main electronic money transfer system used Rogers as their primary network. Guess what they used for their backup network? Rogers. There is also very rampant high level corruption leading to anti competitive behaviour, oligarchy, money laundering and I can go on and on. Point is Canada is not a good example of networks and failures. It is a good example of incompetence and mediocrity.
- solardev 4y ago
  Sounds a lot like America. Anybody can pay for redundant services in multiple data centers and networks. But almost nobody does. And corruption? Heh, here we just call them "donations".
  - ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
    Yes but Canada has none of the highs of America. If you want to change the world, America is one of the only places.
    - solardev 4y ago
      Gosh, I wish I could trade places. If Canada would accept us as refugees, I'd move there in a heartbeat. Change the world? Lol, maybe if you're Bezos or Zuckerberg. The rest of us mostly just stifle under their iron boots. If you don't get shot first. IMO a country that prioritizes its average citizens over its uber-rich isn't mediocre, it's well-managed. America is a hellscape of greed and corruption. Guess the grass is always greener, huh?
      - ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
        I am in the US. I spent a long time in Canada. The population of the US is huge. While the shootings I agree are egregious, in every other way the US is better. The average citizens in Canada have no upward mobility, no healthcare except for absolute emergencies and no bright hope for the future.
        solardev 4y ago
        Why do Canadians have no healthcare? Isn't there a national system? > in every other way the US is better > The average citizens in Canada have no upward mobility > no bright hope for the future. This also applies to everyone I know in the US, aside from those working in tech =/ It is especially bad in rural areas.
        ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
        No healthcare because every single doctor leaves for the US.
        mthoms 4y ago
        Many do, yes. Many also return. Why are you insisting on using absolutes in your comments?
        ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
- cloudsec9 4y ago
  Sorry to rain on your evidence free assertion fest here, but let me push back a bit here: > Rogers as their primary network. [...] backup network? Rogers. What idiots, right? But there is likely a bit more nuance here which this throw-away comment is ignoring, like using cellular/microwave/fibre/copper in a diverse and high-availability way. I don't know all the details of the network, but all of this stuff works pretty well MOST of the time, so I'd assume their core network is pretty well built and Interac has tight agreements that pay them big bucks for outages. And, don't mistake this for me saying that having 3 national ISPs is good. >"..." is not a good example of networks and failures. Actually, it's a pretty rocking example. Right now, we have zero clue why this happened, and complex built to survive SPOF systems have complex interactions and weird failure modes. But those Canadians are all Cletus and don't know how to configure a router, right? Could this be an incompetent configuration? Sure, and we'll find that out, as this one will likely spark hearings due to the length and impact. Just wondering if a big AWS outage means that the US is "mediocre", or if a failure should reflect the organization that failed?
cloudsec9 4y ago
While I'm all for ranting about too much control by too few players... How is this different then any "big" player having issues? (Think AWS, Big US ISP, large payment provider such as VISA/MC) I don't think most NEVER thought about network issues ... but rather a calculated risk, as long outages tend to be a rare occurrence. It's honestly cheaper to eat losses on a day like today then to pay for redundancy and availability.

wmf 4y ago

For things like ATMs I think having two network connections is pretty expensive. Companies also like to use "strategic outsourcing" where they use the same ISP for all their locations which results in the systemic outages we're seeing now.

avi_vallarapu 4y ago
Well, the cost of outage vs the cost to maintain multiple ISP's is the key decision factor here.

ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago

Again as I wrote elsewhere it's because Canada is a deeply mediocre country just getting by with others help and technology. Interac the main electronic money transfer system used Rogers as their primary network. Guess what they used for their backup network? Rogers. There is also very rampant high level corruption leading to anti competitive behaviour, oligarchy, money laundering and I can go on and on. Point is Canada is not a good example of networks and failures. It is a good example of incompetence and mediocrity.

solardev 4y ago
Sounds a lot like America. Anybody can pay for redundant services in multiple data centers and networks. But almost nobody does. And corruption? Heh, here we just call them "donations".
- ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
  Yes but Canada has none of the highs of America. If you want to change the world, America is one of the only places.
  - solardev 4y ago
    Gosh, I wish I could trade places. If Canada would accept us as refugees, I'd move there in a heartbeat. Change the world? Lol, maybe if you're Bezos or Zuckerberg. The rest of us mostly just stifle under their iron boots. If you don't get shot first. IMO a country that prioritizes its average citizens over its uber-rich isn't mediocre, it's well-managed. America is a hellscape of greed and corruption. Guess the grass is always greener, huh?
    - ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
      I am in the US. I spent a long time in Canada. The population of the US is huge. While the shootings I agree are egregious, in every other way the US is better. The average citizens in Canada have no upward mobility, no healthcare except for absolute emergencies and no bright hope for the future.
      - solardev 4y ago
        Why do Canadians have no healthcare? Isn't there a national system? > in every other way the US is better > The average citizens in Canada have no upward mobility > no bright hope for the future. This also applies to everyone I know in the US, aside from those working in tech =/ It is especially bad in rural areas.
        ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
        No healthcare because every single doctor leaves for the US.
        mthoms 4y ago
        Many do, yes. Many also return. Why are you insisting on using absolutes in your comments?
        ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
cloudsec9 4y ago
Sorry to rain on your evidence free assertion fest here, but let me push back a bit here: > Rogers as their primary network. [...] backup network? Rogers. What idiots, right? But there is likely a bit more nuance here which this throw-away comment is ignoring, like using cellular/microwave/fibre/copper in a diverse and high-availability way. I don't know all the details of the network, but all of this stuff works pretty well MOST of the time, so I'd assume their core network is pretty well built and Interac has tight agreements that pay them big bucks for outages. And, don't mistake this for me saying that having 3 national ISPs is good. >"..." is not a good example of networks and failures. Actually, it's a pretty rocking example. Right now, we have zero clue why this happened, and complex built to survive SPOF systems have complex interactions and weird failure modes. But those Canadians are all Cletus and don't know how to configure a router, right? Could this be an incompetent configuration? Sure, and we'll find that out, as this one will likely spark hearings due to the length and impact. Just wondering if a big AWS outage means that the US is "mediocre", or if a failure should reflect the organization that failed?

cloudsec9 4y ago

While I'm all for ranting about too much control by too few players... How is this different then any "big" player having issues? (Think AWS, Big US ISP, large payment provider such as VISA/MC) I don't think most NEVER thought about network issues ... but rather a calculated risk, as long outages tend to be a rare occurrence. It's honestly cheaper to eat losses on a day like today then to pay for redundancy and availability.