4 ms·

Explain to me how you can counterfeit Cisco equipment. I truly don't get it. I might be naive but I would have thought they have custom ASICs in their products

by chx 4y ago

Explain to me how you can counterfeit Cisco equipment. I truly don't get it. I might be naive but I would have thought they have custom ASICs in their products and then where are you going to get them if not from Cisco?

wmf 4y ago
Low-end Cisco products use off-the-shelf chips; I assume these are the ones being counterfeited.
aosmith 4y ago
There are a few tiers of fake products. The same is roughly true for sneakers, handbags, etc. (A) Real products that are being sold on the black market, think of these as stolen from the factory. They're cheaper because nobody is paying the royalties. (B) High quality knock offs that are made at the same factory with the same materials and tools. These might be slightly less well made. (C) What you think of as fake. Just junk. Most people encounter A and B without ever knowing it.
- EvanAnderson 4y ago
  These knock-offs of Cisco 2960X's definitely fall into category B. They'd be next to impossible to identify in the field: https://www.servethehome.com/fake-cisco-switches-in-the-supply-chain-uncovered/ https://www.servethehome.com/fake-cisco-switches-in-the-supp...
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  There is also Grey Market, goods sold at a discount in other nations then reimported back to the US, dont know if that popular with enterprise gear but it for sure is with consumer electronics, and other product groups (like books which is legal now thanks to the US Supreme court)
  - aosmith 4y ago
    That's category A...
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
  Sure, but the obvious question is why we would care about "counterfeit" Cisco equipment that is... technically... only if you're an obnoxious pedant... but technically... exactly identical to genuine Cisco equipment.
  - grayfaced 4y ago
    Updates. Warranty.
    - thaumasiotes 4y ago
      Is the vendor offering a counterfeit warranty? What do the updates and warranty have to do with it?
  - oceanplexian 4y ago
    If it was made overseas and didn’t go through the same QA process for production Cisco equipment, I’d be worried it’d be bugged.
  - aosmith 4y ago
    If it's something for the defense industry they definitely care.
  - marcus0x62 4y ago
    Other people have mentioned the software update/warranty problem. Another problem is these counterfeit devices are usually not “identical” in any meaningful sense of the word. While they might look the same, the counterfeiters typically swap lower quality parts (think things like capacitors and other similar components) whenever they can, and the devices fail prematurely or sporadically.
- themacguffinman 4y ago
  This is one reason I avoid Amazon like the plague. It's absolutely filled with fake products of all tiers and there's often no reliable way to verify this as a consumer. Retailers are supposed to have a secure and verified supply chain but apparently Amazon doesn't see the point in this, they co-mingle inventory and will deliver you a fake product with the same SKU.
  - javajosh 4y ago
    I wonder if they get away with it because for most people the fake is good enough?
    - themacguffinman 4y ago
      You can't really conclude that if consumers never find out they're getting fakes. When fakes fail or cause issues, they blame the original company. Amazon shares product ratings/reviews of an SKU.
happyopossum 4y ago
> I would have thought they have custom ASICs in their products That's a very 2001 way of product design - the vast vast majority of networking hardware (even the super expensive and complicated security stuff) uses off the shelf chips from Cavium (for CPU), Xilinx (FPGA), etc. packaged up in a manner optimized for it's purpose. Almost nobody is spinning custom ASICs for network hardware these days - the cost/benefit over an FPGA just isn't there.
- wmf 4y ago
  None of Cisco's switches or routers are FPGA-based. Maybe some firewalls are; I'm not sure.
- chx 4y ago
  This https://blog.cloudflare.com/asics-at-the-edge/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/asics-at-the-edge/ post from 2020 seems to disagree.
NickRandom 4y ago
I think the linked submission explains it clearly enough (no snark intended). Here is a cut-n-paste from it (3rd paragraph) According to the indictment, the devices the Pro Network Entities imported from China and Hong Kong were typically older, lower-model products, some of which had been sold or discarded, which Chinese counterfeiters then modified to appear to be genuine versions of new, enhanced, and more expensive Cisco devices. As alleged, the Chinese counterfeiters often added pirated Cisco software and unauthorized, low-quality, or unreliable components – including components to circumvent technological measures added by Cisco to the software to check for software license compliance and to authenticate the hardware. Finally, to make the devices appear new, genuine, high-quality, and factory-sealed by Cisco, the Chinese counterfeiters allegedly added counterfeited Cisco labels, stickers, boxes, documentation, packaging, and other materials

by chx 4y ago

wmf 4y ago

Low-end Cisco products use off-the-shelf chips; I assume these are the ones being counterfeited.

aosmith 4y ago

There are a few tiers of fake products. The same is roughly true for sneakers, handbags, etc. (A) Real products that are being sold on the black market, think of these as stolen from the factory. They're cheaper because nobody is paying the royalties. (B) High quality knock offs that are made at the same factory with the same materials and tools. These might be slightly less well made. (C) What you think of as fake. Just junk. Most people encounter A and B without ever knowing it.

EvanAnderson 4y ago
These knock-offs of Cisco 2960X's definitely fall into category B. They'd be next to impossible to identify in the field: https://www.servethehome.com/fake-cisco-switches-in-the-supply-chain-uncovered/ https://www.servethehome.com/fake-cisco-switches-in-the-supp...
phpisthebest 4y ago
There is also Grey Market, goods sold at a discount in other nations then reimported back to the US, dont know if that popular with enterprise gear but it for sure is with consumer electronics, and other product groups (like books which is legal now thanks to the US Supreme court)
- aosmith 4y ago
  That's category A...
thaumasiotes 4y ago
Sure, but the obvious question is why we would care about "counterfeit" Cisco equipment that is... technically... only if you're an obnoxious pedant... but technically... exactly identical to genuine Cisco equipment.
- grayfaced 4y ago
  Updates. Warranty.
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
    Is the vendor offering a counterfeit warranty? What do the updates and warranty have to do with it?
- oceanplexian 4y ago
  If it was made overseas and didn’t go through the same QA process for production Cisco equipment, I’d be worried it’d be bugged.
- aosmith 4y ago
  If it's something for the defense industry they definitely care.
- marcus0x62 4y ago
  Other people have mentioned the software update/warranty problem. Another problem is these counterfeit devices are usually not “identical” in any meaningful sense of the word. While they might look the same, the counterfeiters typically swap lower quality parts (think things like capacitors and other similar components) whenever they can, and the devices fail prematurely or sporadically.
themacguffinman 4y ago
This is one reason I avoid Amazon like the plague. It's absolutely filled with fake products of all tiers and there's often no reliable way to verify this as a consumer. Retailers are supposed to have a secure and verified supply chain but apparently Amazon doesn't see the point in this, they co-mingle inventory and will deliver you a fake product with the same SKU.
- javajosh 4y ago
  I wonder if they get away with it because for most people the fake is good enough?
  - themacguffinman 4y ago
    You can't really conclude that if consumers never find out they're getting fakes. When fakes fail or cause issues, they blame the original company. Amazon shares product ratings/reviews of an SKU.

happyopossum 4y ago

> I would have thought they have custom ASICs in their products That's a very 2001 way of product design - the vast vast majority of networking hardware (even the super expensive and complicated security stuff) uses off the shelf chips from Cavium (for CPU), Xilinx (FPGA), etc. packaged up in a manner optimized for it's purpose. Almost nobody is spinning custom ASICs for network hardware these days - the cost/benefit over an FPGA just isn't there.

wmf 4y ago
None of Cisco's switches or routers are FPGA-based. Maybe some firewalls are; I'm not sure.
chx 4y ago
This https://blog.cloudflare.com/asics-at-the-edge/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/asics-at-the-edge/ post from 2020 seems to disagree.

NickRandom 4y ago

I think the linked submission explains it clearly enough (no snark intended). Here is a cut-n-paste from it (3rd paragraph) According to the indictment, the devices the Pro Network Entities imported from China and Hong Kong were typically older, lower-model products, some of which had been sold or discarded, which Chinese counterfeiters then modified to appear to be genuine versions of new, enhanced, and more expensive Cisco devices. As alleged, the Chinese counterfeiters often added pirated Cisco software and unauthorized, low-quality, or unreliable components – including components to circumvent technological measures added by Cisco to the software to check for software license compliance and to authenticate the hardware. Finally, to make the devices appear new, genuine, high-quality, and factory-sealed by Cisco, the Chinese counterfeiters allegedly added counterfeited Cisco labels, stickers, boxes, documentation, packaging, and other materials