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US citizens contribute to US greatness by continuing to accept values such as free speech, free market, personal responsibility and limited government. Which in

US citizens contribute to US greatness by continuing to accept values such as free speech, free market, personal responsibility and limited government. Which in turns drives economic and cultural innovation and provides sufficient tax revenue to pay for defense of other countries that would otherwise be taken over. Many Australian citizens would not have accepted higher risk from COVID in exchange for greater personal freedom for example. Yet without great freedom, great innovation like Silicon Valley is impossible

palmetieri2000 4y ago
>Yet without great freedom, great innovation like Silicon Valley is impossible Nah, I disagree. First, individuals who were educated across the globe, money from across the globe, and access to global resources are all necessary (and a fundamental part of the history) of Silicon Valley's success. There really is no argument that Silicon Valley-like innovation do occur in distinctly non-free environments. For example; The Soviet Union's part in the Space Race, the current entrepreneurial and technological development in China, the British component of the Industrial Revolution. Each of these demonstrate scientific innovation in otherwise less-free societies than California. I'm sure there are many more examples if you wanted to extend the historic timeline further. Not an endorsement of the CCP.
- cat_plus_plus 4y ago
  What are actual major technological innovations coming from China as opposed to making stuff invented in the West cheaper? They would have sent Steve Jobs to a reeducation camp before he had any impact. Sure there are smart people everywhere, but by and large they can only realize their potential by coming to a free country. Military driven pursuits like space race are about the only exception when totalitarian states allow individual creativity out of necessity. Civilian applications like climate studies, GPS and satellite phone/TV are all Western and SpaceX runs circles around government programs.
  - palmetieri2000 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_China#Chemistry,_materials_science_and_nanotechnology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Chin... Feel free to explore that and I'm certain you can dig up plenty more examples of fields in which Chinese scientists have worked on or released significant projects. I'm not going to get into an argument about the value of the innovations China has produced, although 'making stuff invented in the West cheaper' is hardly a disqualifier for counting as innovation. Many US companies only claim to fame is doing the same thing, innovating a process to provide something that was once expensive at a lower cost. Further, (and once again, I am not in any way pro-China) it is incredibly misguided and the perfect example of my point about US parochialism to dismiss Chinese innovation because you don't think it 'counts' compared to Western innovation. And lastly, we haven't even explored any of the less extreme examples. Many of the countries in the EU have less of what people in the US identify as makes them 'free' yet it would be simply nonsensical to say that they have not contributed to global modernization through science and innovation.
    - cat_plus_plus 4y ago
      Well, what is it that you can point at around you and go "this would never have been possible without Chinese innovation"? Or French innovation for that matter, talking about recent stuff not centuries old cuisine? France has been making wine way longer than Napa, but California (while by no means a libertarian paradise) has lighter regulation on both wines themselves and labor to produce them. These days Californian wines routinely beat French ones in blind tasting tests. Germany, Japan and South Korea come to mind for important technological advances and Bollywood in India for prodigious high quality artistic output. So US is not everything, but it's part of a pretty small club of hyper innovative countries. What has come out of Russia (country where I was born and raised) recently except bad news? You could get a good education and study science, but visionaries like Steve Jobs and Elon Musk would have been smacked down before they could make an impact. They actually had a project that bred foxes into friendly pets to rival cats and dogs. But, good luck getting one in your house.
      - 4y ago

palmetieri2000 4y ago

>Yet without great freedom, great innovation like Silicon Valley is impossible Nah, I disagree. First, individuals who were educated across the globe, money from across the globe, and access to global resources are all necessary (and a fundamental part of the history) of Silicon Valley's success. There really is no argument that Silicon Valley-like innovation do occur in distinctly non-free environments. For example; The Soviet Union's part in the Space Race, the current entrepreneurial and technological development in China, the British component of the Industrial Revolution. Each of these demonstrate scientific innovation in otherwise less-free societies than California. I'm sure there are many more examples if you wanted to extend the historic timeline further. Not an endorsement of the CCP.

cat_plus_plus 4y ago
What are actual major technological innovations coming from China as opposed to making stuff invented in the West cheaper? They would have sent Steve Jobs to a reeducation camp before he had any impact. Sure there are smart people everywhere, but by and large they can only realize their potential by coming to a free country. Military driven pursuits like space race are about the only exception when totalitarian states allow individual creativity out of necessity. Civilian applications like climate studies, GPS and satellite phone/TV are all Western and SpaceX runs circles around government programs.
- palmetieri2000 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_China#Chemistry,_materials_science_and_nanotechnology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Chin... Feel free to explore that and I'm certain you can dig up plenty more examples of fields in which Chinese scientists have worked on or released significant projects. I'm not going to get into an argument about the value of the innovations China has produced, although 'making stuff invented in the West cheaper' is hardly a disqualifier for counting as innovation. Many US companies only claim to fame is doing the same thing, innovating a process to provide something that was once expensive at a lower cost. Further, (and once again, I am not in any way pro-China) it is incredibly misguided and the perfect example of my point about US parochialism to dismiss Chinese innovation because you don't think it 'counts' compared to Western innovation. And lastly, we haven't even explored any of the less extreme examples. Many of the countries in the EU have less of what people in the US identify as makes them 'free' yet it would be simply nonsensical to say that they have not contributed to global modernization through science and innovation.
  - cat_plus_plus 4y ago
    Well, what is it that you can point at around you and go "this would never have been possible without Chinese innovation"? Or French innovation for that matter, talking about recent stuff not centuries old cuisine? France has been making wine way longer than Napa, but California (while by no means a libertarian paradise) has lighter regulation on both wines themselves and labor to produce them. These days Californian wines routinely beat French ones in blind tasting tests. Germany, Japan and South Korea come to mind for important technological advances and Bollywood in India for prodigious high quality artistic output. So US is not everything, but it's part of a pretty small club of hyper innovative countries. What has come out of Russia (country where I was born and raised) recently except bad news? You could get a good education and study science, but visionaries like Steve Jobs and Elon Musk would have been smacked down before they could make an impact. They actually had a project that bred foxes into friendly pets to rival cats and dogs. But, good luck getting one in your house.
    - 4y ago